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France To Force iTunes to Open to Other Players?
Posted by
ScuttleMonkey
on Tue Mar 14, 2006 02:41 AM
from the capitalism-doesn't-always-play-nice dept.
from the capitalism-doesn't-always-play-nice dept.
JordanL writes "It appears that France is pushing through a law that some feel may force Apple to open iTunes to other players. From the article: 'Under a draft law expected to be voted in parliament on Thursday, consumers would be able to legally use software that converts digital content into any format. It would no longer be illegal to crack digital rights management -- the codes that protect music, films and other content -- if it is to enable to the conversion from one format to another.'"
Related Stories
[+]
French Parliament Fights iPod and iTunes 323 comments
f00lforb00l writes "According to an article in New York Times, the French parliament is considering legislation which would require that the iPod also be able to use music from services other than the iTunes Store." From the article: "The outcome of the debate, which began as an update to French copyright law, is far from clear. But taken to one logical conclusion, amendments to the copyright bill could lead Apple, the market leader, to leave the French music business, said Jonathan Arber, a research analyst in London at the technology consultancy Ovum. 'My gut feeling is that Apple will simply pull out of France if these amendments get through,' Mr. Arber said. 'Weighed against breaking their business model for all markets, it doesn't make sense for Apple to continue operating with the iPod and iTunes in France.'" Update: 03/17 15:46 GMT by Z : A previous story covering this topic may also be of interest to you. Sorry, folks.
[+]
Slashback: ODF Wars, Duval Layoff, French DRM 274 comments
Slashback tonight brings some corrections, clarifications, and updates to previous Slashdot stories, including a response from Mandriva's CEO, Apple responds to French DRM legislation, Microsoft possibly undermining ODF ISO approval, a more in-depth look at Fedora Core 5, more thoughts on the GPLv3, and Britannica strikes back at Wikipedia -- Read on for details.
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Journalism at its finest (Score:5, Insightful)
The law, if enacted, could prompt Apple to shut its iTunes store in France, some industry observers say, to keep from making songs vulnerable to conversion outside France, too.
If Apple had to shut down iTMS in France, its competition would have to shut down for the same reason.
"The person who will have converted iTunes songs will be able to make it available elsewhere," Marc Guez, head of the French Collecting Society for Music Producers rights (SCPP) told Reuters.
Not legally. The music is still protected by copyright law. Currently, the DRM can be removed illegally, and then the music can be illegally shared. Making the first step legal doesn't make the second step legal.
The law would also mean that other online French music retailers such as Fnac, part of PPR, would have to make iTunes songs available on their Web sites.
Can anyone translate this from journalist-speak to tech-speak for me? What exactly would Fnac have to make available?
Police agents can monitor music exchange Web sites and trace back the email address of beneficiaries by asking the Internet service provider for it through a court order.
Presumably they meant they can ask the ISP for the billing information of the customer who was using a particular IP address (not e-mail address), which the police agents obtained through monitoring P2P services (not Web sites).
Re:Journalism at its finest (Score:5, Funny)
So, ah, don't you have 8-tracks to convert?
Parent
Re:Journalism at its finest (Score:5, Funny)
The groupies are the best part.
Now if you'll excuse me, I have some wax cylinders to rip...
Parent
Re:Journalism at its finest (Score:5, Funny)
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Some explanations ... (Score:4, Informative)
Fnac is a quite powerfull culture oriented retail group that has setup their own music file format. The point is that FNAC is one of the biggest music product seller in France. It has been proven by testers that Fnac salespersons were "not pushing at all" the Apple products and trying to push the products that were compatible with the online Fnac music store !
The law is just adding more anti-trust principles on digital music, so that corporate trust can not force people to by their own product and can not force the the people to by only at their shop.
Parent
Re:Some explanations ... (Score:4, Interesting)
The law is just adding more anti-trust principles on digital music, so that corporate trust can not force people to by their own product and can not force the the people to by only at their shop.
Thanks for the background info. The intent here sounds good, but I'm still confused as to what Fnac would be forced to do. Offer non-DRM AAC or MP3 versions of songs customers purchase from Fnac, which the copyright holders won't let them do? Offer FairPlay-encrypted DRM versions, which Apple won't let them do? Link to the iTMS?
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Re:Some explanations ... (Score:5, Interesting)
There seems to be some confusion in the article between iTunes and the iPod. The law would not affect just Apple, but all online music retailers and digital music players. But since Apple is the leader in both, it gets singled out.
My guess is that Apple may be forced by the recording industry to close iTMS France (after all, Steve Jobs has gone on record as saying that DRM isn't the answer), but eventually returning after a backlash from French artists and music purchasers.
Parent
Re:Some explanations ... (Score:3, Informative)
Steve Jobs has gone on record as saying that DRM isn't the answer).
Where? Jobs is 100% in favour of DRM... as can be seen by the design (DRM in hardware) of the new Intel Macs designed to provide a means for music and video to be completely tied to one machine. You might also like to consider that DRM refers to "digital information"... which is a lot more than just music and video. Among other things (such as emails, spreadsheet, word processing documents)... it also controls computer code -- something th
Re:Some explanations ... (Score:5, Insightful)
They don't use their own format, they use Windows Media Audio with MS DRM. Like everyone except Apple.
Parent
Re:Some explanations ... (Score:4, Informative)
With the exception of Apple using its own system and a few small companies selling straight mp3 files, all the big online music distributors use MS DRM. Do you real need me to mention names? Napster, EMI, Vivendi Universal, Virgin and many others. Are they succesful? I don't know and I never implied that they were!
And why should Apple use WMA? And MS DRM?
I never say Apple should use WMA!
The online music market is divided in 3:
Apple and its FairPlay DRM
All the other big distributors and their MS DRM
Some small distributors use MP3 or OGG
Parent
Re:Some explanations ... (Score:4, Insightful)
It is arbitrary barriers that make me most angry as a consumer. Because all costs of development are in the end borne by the consumer, I am effectively paying extra to make the product less useful. Where the R&D dollars could have gone into researching a better audio codec or (heaven forbid) a stop button in iTunes, they instead went into developing Fairplay and preventing me from using purchased files in some ways.
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Re:Journalism at its finest (Score:4, Informative)
This law is as strict as the american one.
The truth is that the french government want the online music store to open themselves to all the mp3 player but with the drm not without. They want them to use the same type of drm( I really don't think apple and microsoft care about France
If you understand french, go there http://eucd.info/ [eucd.info]. You will understand France is no longer freedom's country
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Re:Journalism at its finest (Score:3, Insightful)
Given the recent data retention directive passed by the European Commision and parlairment and required to
Re:Journalism at its finest (Score:3, Interesting)
Alright, yes, if this law passes, it will become easier to remove DRM encryption, because the tools to do so will beco
Re:Journalism at its finest (Score:3, Insightful)
Total BS. itunes sells exactly the same music in France as all the other online providers (in France). There is no "foreign cultural influence" there. Secondly, Vivendi is French and is the largest music publisher in the world. Thirdly it would be the first time the French government is interested in the consumers and not doing wathever the music lobbies want it to do.
Re:Journalism at its finest (Score:4, Interesting)
Don't be mistaken, the music industry has a big influence in France as well, and they'll not give up on that one. Proof is the damn thing was supposed to be voted in December but the parliament is opposing much more resistance than the majors suspected.
--
XviD review [palmdrive.net]
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Re:Journalism at its finest (Score:3, Insightful)
Apple can still sell songs with Fairplay encryption present.
It's just that the end user would now have a legal right to break the DRM and convert the file into what ever format he needs which of course renders the DRM pointless but Apple would not be breaking their contract if this law was enacted.
Re:Seems like it will be legally shared (Score:5, Insightful)
It's fairly clear that I have a moral right to keep my work secret. The moment I make it public and people start reading or viewing or using it, however, it becomes part of the heritage of the society, it influences and changes - and, if it is widely consumed, society end up with a much larger investment in it than I had.
Presently, society grants me the privilege of restricting copying - using its guns or the threat of them to punish those that defy my wishes. This is, however, not something I can demand. It is something that society grants.
Eivind.
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L'iPod (Score:5, Funny)
Re:L'iPod (Score:5, Informative)
There is a grammatical error, the correct writing is: L'iPod est mort, vive l'iPod.
See ? Being French is advantageous. Anytime someone tries to write something in french on /. you can be sure to find an error. So just do like me:
1- Reply to fix the error.
2- Wait for the nice "+5, Informative" mod.
3- ???
4- Karma increased !
Parent
Re:L'iPod (Score:5, Funny)
Wait... I'm the one who writes in bad portuguese and bad english. Minus karma to me!
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Seen it coming (Score:5, Interesting)
French = Freedom. I think that's already been established by the US Congress [cnn.com].
Re:Seen it coming (Score:3, Funny)
French = Freedom. I think that's already been established by the US Congress.
That's the reason US eateries serve "freedom" fries instead of French fries now? I did wonder... That sounds a bit petty though. Let's hope France doesn't take back the statue of liberty in retaliation!
Re:Seen it coming (Score:4, Interesting)
What do we know today that we didn't know in November 2004?
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Under what justification? (Score:3, Insightful)
Secondly, while I could definately seen reasoning that you should be able to format-shift, I don't see why people have an automatic 'right' to conversion. I mean, it shouldn't be illegal to format-shift, but neither should Apple be required to put a sytem in place to do so. There are plenty of ways for me to move to a different format. Generally, some quality loss is involved, but no more than format-shifting between physical mediums had (such as tape to CD, CD to mp3, etc).
Re:Under what justification? (Score:5, Insightful)
And no, Apple isn't required to do anything. They can take it or leave it. It's their choice to sell stuff in France.
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Re:Under what justification? (Score:3, Interesting)
Actually France is a republic (the "Fifth Republic", to be exact), though many would argue the goverment is actually socialist (less so now than fifteen years ago, but much more so than the U.S.)
Yes, I'm nitpicking. But France and the U.S. are not democracies and the people do make the laws. (if it were to go to a public vote, sharing copyrighted mp3's as well as many other vices would most likely be legalized in any democracy.)
BTW, France is
Re:Under what justification? (Score:3, Insightful)
And yes, I'm nitpicking... ;)
Re:Under what justification? (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:Under what justification? (Score:5, Insightful)
I think in most countries, that would/should be regarded a very direct violation of consumers' rights. In Australia, you are supposed to get the product you paid for, not something different. By changing how you can "use" each song, Apple have essentially switched the product that people have.
Apple probably justify this by some stupid clause in their Terms & Conditions that states you don't really own the songs at all, or something. I'm sure they also have one of those "we reserve the right to change anything in the terms & conditions without notice" clauses, too.
Parent
Microsoft as well? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Microsoft as well? (Score:3, Informative)
Vive la France! (Score:5, Funny)
I also think that whole "fance surrenders" thing was silly too.
Consumer rights and IP (Score:5, Informative)
Would pulling out iTMS France be enough? (Score:5, Interesting)
I wish I had access to the draft of the bill in question (along with a good English translation) -- the article suggests several things which may or may not be true.
One of these suggestions is that Apple may have to stop running iTMS France in order to avoid compliance. However, it also states that other online stores would have to provide songs in a form that allows them to be played on the iPod.
Now I'm assuming that the primary music labels from outside of France would prefer to simply no longer license their works for digital download in France than allow providers to distribute music in an unencumbered format (such as MP3). Which would mean that the only way French law could permit other online music stores to provide music in iPod format would be for them to be allowed to use Fairplay.
This would mean that either Apple would be forced to license Fairplay to any online music store in France, or these companies will be permitted to reverse-engineer it. They would likewise need to be able to access a users Fairplay key.
In which case, the only way Apple may be able to avoid this whole mess would be to pull not only iTMS out of France, but the iPod as well. And I don't see Apple doing this.
The only way I see around this would be for all of the online music stores in France -- Apple's iTMS included -- to come up with a common, France-specific music DRM format. And while the added flexability would be of benefit to French digital music consumers, I'm not sure if having nation-specific DRM formats is going to be all that great of an idea.
Yaz.
Re:Would pulling out iTMS France be enough? (Score:4, Interesting)
I think you need to read what I posted again, because I did indeed deal with this.
What incentive would, say, Sony BMG have to license music to any French digital music retailer, if that retailer wnated to sell their music in a non-DRM'ed format? Sony BMG (just as an example) could simply decide to get out of online digital music sales in France altogether, rather than have their music sold in MP3 or unprotected AAC format. And with no music to sell, the online stores will simply dry up and go away in France.
The only way the French government can get this to work is to allow the other vendors to reverse engineer Fairplay, and/or require Apple to license Fairplay to these other companies. The aim of this law doesn't appear to be to force online music stores out of business, and in order to work with Fairplay other online stores will need access to a users iTMS key. Because as I see it, every music company would rather stop selling all online digital music than permit legal, unprotected music downloads in France.
This is why, as I said, having access to the proposed text of this law would help clarify such issues.
Yaz.
Parent
iTunes or Napster? (Score:3, Interesting)
Why keep up your subscription if you can download all the music you want and then keep it .
Misleading article (Score:5, Informative)
The French parliament is currently discussing new laws, that will implement the EUCD directive, by forbidding and severly punishing any attempt to circumvent DRM protection and copyrighted material downloads. This project is called DADvSI.
Some MPs are even pushing to forbid the development, diffusion and the use of P2P software.
Lots of (artits, users, musicians, etc.) communities are opposed to all this.
MPs first voted against this project and adopted a global licence (monthtly fee for unrestricted private downloads), but the French minister of Culture said it was not acceptable and he had the parliament to re-discuss the project again.
More information (all in French) at:
http://fr.news.yahoo.com/10032006/7/projet-dadvsi
http://eucd.info/ [eucd.info]
http://lestelechargements.fr/ [lestelechargements.fr]
http://www.odebi.org/new/theme/ [odebi.org]
http://www.adami.fr/ [adami.fr]
Interesting experiment (Score:4, Insightful)
Most likely all the DRM companies would come together to make a program that converts from each DRM to another, and probably impose a time on the key to ensure if company X's DRM is broken that doesn't allow a hole that all other DRM media can be drained out through.
I digress.
What this would do economically is allow all digital media to compete on an equal footing. Don't like the price of a song on Napster? try iTunes. Want the latest MS Plays for Sure device but have a backlog of iTunes media? just convert it over. This would give consumers choice in their digital media and break the lock in that currently exists.
From what I know of Apple is that they make almost no money on iTunes but a huge amount on hardware, so in theory this would allow them to use their iTunes's competitors to seel iPods. And from the MS side this would break the stranglehold that Apple currently has on the portable media market. In theory this looks like a win-win for everyone. But I don't expect anyone to go for this, in business if your competitor is winning that usually means you're losing. And what multi-billion dollar company wants to take that chance?
Not a bad idea (Score:5, Insightful)
What would be even better would be a ban on DRM systems that prevent absolutely the exercise of Fair Dealing rights and/or copying under Special Licence {e.g., I have permission from the band Ocean Colour Scene to make copies of any of their work for my own use; any DRM system that does not take this into account, perhaps by requiring a password to enable copying, should be illegal}.
Socialist France with a right wing president (Score:5, Insightful)
Last fall we had a law making it easy for customers to get out of phone and tv contracts where it was not possible to cancel the contract before the renewal period (usually 12 months).
Keep in mind that elections are due next year and that for those unaware of French politics (although VERY funny) Chirac has been elected last time with 82% of the votes because he was facing our local facist Le Pen, so the left voters HAD to vote for Chirac in the second round of the presidential election of 2002.
Then Chirac promised he would not "forget" this and make a government for "everybody" and not just for his "side". Of course this was quickly forgotten and now with the elections coming he has to steer a little bit to the left after 5 years of "shut up I've been elected and I do what I want".
Additionally I work with Czech people and in Czech "Curak" pronouced "shurak" is very close to "sheerak" and means "Asshole", languages are great aren't they ? And Bush is pronounced like "bouche" in French which means "mouth" and also "liar" if you use it in "c'est une bouche" translated as "he's full of mouth"...
Bottom line is that France is rediscovering freedom for consumers instead of corporations because elections are coming up, but it's a good time to grab things...
In related news.. (Score:5, Informative)
The same thing has been happening in both sweden [computerworld.no] and Norway [forbrukerportalen.no].
And atleast for Norways case, I don't actually think there's any doubt iTunes are breaking Norwegian law. I mean, seriously.. retro-actively changing the terms of a deal, and claiming the other party has no right to reject or get out the deal is as silly as it gets.
As it stands, if the iTunes EULA was legal and enforcable they could just add a clause saying 'Give us all your money!', and you'd be legally bound to do it.
More "Nanny State" Nonsense (Score:3, Interesting)
If people want iPods and their DRM'ed music format, then I say good luck to all parties concerned - Apple have identified a marketplace for such products & customers are prepared to pay for them.
Personally, although I use an MP3 player quite regularly, I won't buy an iPod because I won't be locked into using a proprietary music format using proprietary software on Windows only - I'd much rather have a less-featured MP3/OGG player that I can mount as a new drive in either Windows or Linux and copy across the tracks I rip from my music CDs.
The point I'm trying to make is that this is entirely a consumer decision, not legislative. It's up to the potential customer to keep him/herself informed before making any purchases and if you don't like certain aspects of a product, then don't buy it - it's that simple.
At this moment in time, I can rip any DVD or CD I currently own to play on whatever device I like and I'm therefore perfectly happy with the "fair use" I get from my movies & CDs - if what I am doing is against the law by circumventing DRM then so be it; if & when I'm caught doing it, I'll happily fight my case but my personal feeling is that it would never stand up in court where I own a legal copy of the original media.
By allowing governments to take control of this kind of issue leaves them open, at a later stage, to corporate lobbying & bribery. Plus I don't want the "Nanny State" removing me of even more of my own decision-making process as a well-informed, intelligent citizen.
Re:Well, this would be absolutely terrible (Score:5, Insightful)
Apple is a large corporation, just like any other, they are concerned about their bottom line.
Who would want to run an iTune on anything other than an iPod anyway, it would be like putting a lawnmower engine in a Ferrari.
I think you have your analogy backwards. You're saying that taking an iTune, converting it and playing it on another player is better than playing it in an iPod.
We don't want choice of what machines to play music on, we just want one good machine.
Speak for yourself, I want to have a choice as to what hardware I play my music on.
The unique selling point is the integrated experience, its the whole system, the iPod, the iMac, the iTunes, its not any one of them, its the whole thing.
I can see your point, but then, why does Apple have iTunes for Windows?
They are no more expensive than comparably equipped competitive products, its just that they sell for more because they give you more.
If they are "no more expensive than comparbly equipped competitive products", then why did you say they "sell for more"? They have a higher price tag because iPod is the most popular brand name portable MP3 player.
Anyway, you can play them on other machines if you really really want to, though why you would is beyond me.
Thanks for your approval.
Well, now someone got all that out of the way, maybe we could have a discussion...? Because the implications are quite serious, not just for music. For the whole lockin approach. Once one country adopts this, first, it will be impossible to contain within its borders. Second, it will be impossible to contain it to music. It could get real interesting.
Finally something we agree on. It could get realllly interesting.
Parent
Re:Well, this would be absolutely terrible (Score:4, Insightful)
Some of us plan to hang on to the music we buy for many years to come. iPod may be your favourite player right now, but already the are a couple of serious contestants, and who knows when a competitor shows up that you just have to have, or when apple is once again taken over by idiots and start selling cappy players, o you move into a different maret segment than they prefer to serve. Do you really want to be unable to play your accumulated collection on anything else than official apple hardware or software?
Parent
Re:Well, this would be absolutely terrible (Score:3, Insightful)
Uh huh. That's why the MP3 player I'm listening to right now has:
- proper gapless playback - fm radio
- built in microphone
- ability to record from either radio or microphone
- ability to take media files off it, as well as put them onto it
- UK and EU power adapter included
None of which is true for the nearest ipod. And it cost about 80 quid less.
RDF indeed.
Re:Well gee (Score:3, Insightful)
If I went looking for a copy of PPS Project - AC vs DC and came home with The Greatest Country And Western Album Evar!!!11, I'd be a deeply unhappy bunny. If you, on the other hand, have no great passion for music, then by all means
Re:Well gee (Score:3, Insightful)
Back in the day, only a minority of people could afford recording equipment. They soon found that they couldn't make enough money out of charging artists to record albums which would then become the artist's property that they could sell to the public, so they came up with another model: get the artist to sign over their rights -- in exchange for a one-off payment -- to the recording company, who would take care of the whole business of selling records and arrange for the ar
Re:You can love France. (Score:4, Funny)
I guess that means I'm fearful and ignorant of brussels sprouts.
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DMCA _is_ useless in France (Score:5, Insightful)
Despite what you may think, US law is not global in nature. Recent IP law "upgrades" are in effect global because the same companies buy the same laws all over the world.
Parent