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Intel Mac OS X Catches Up With Older Brother
Posted by
CmdrTaco
on Thu Nov 03, 2005 03:00 PM
from the yes-have-some dept.
from the yes-have-some dept.
RetrogradeMotion writes "Apple is now one step closer to the Intel transition. According to the OSx86 Project, a recently leaked installation DVD of Mac OS X 10.4.3 reveals that the Intel version is in sync with the PowerPC version - the two are now identical. Initially, "OSx86" was substantially behind its PPC counterpart, but the recent update makes it ready for the public. The article also notes that Apple has continued to learn from hackers' efforts to crack the operating system and has greatly strengthened the TPM protections."
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"article"???? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:"article"???? (Score:5, Insightful)
nonfictional prose forming an independent part of a publication
Is it nonfictional? Check. Is it prose? Check. Is it an independent part of a publication? Check.
What, exactly, is your complaint? If it's that this is being treated seriously when it shouldn't, then say that instead of spouting nonsense about how this isn't an article, when it clearly is.
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Re:"article"???? (Score:5, Interesting)
Letters exist even with email.
Radio exists with tv.
Journalism can exist with blogs.
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Re:"article"???? (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:"article"???? (Score:5, Funny)
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A Hopeless Battle (Score:5, Insightful)
Time for the next hack to come along.
Until every byte of code verifies for itself that it is running on genuine Apple hardware before it will execute, I'm not sure if Apple can ever close this door.
Maybe this experiment will eventually prove that TPM itself is impossible to achieve when more people are working to break your system than are employeed by Apple to defend it.
Hey, Steve, want to reconsider that move to Intel now?
Re:A Hopeless Battle (Score:4, Insightful)
IMHO it's in Apple's interest for there to be TPM that's breakable if you REALLY want to break it (much like iTunes DRM). This way, only someone who know what they're doing will be able to run OSX on non-Apple hardware - no worries about supporting a crappy handmade POS, but still putting OSX in the hands of the more Crafty interesed geeks.
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Re:A Hopeless Battle (Score:4, Insightful)
Until every byte of code verifies for itself that it is running on genuine Apple hardware before it will execute, I'm not sure if Apple can ever close this door.
Of course they can't and don't expect to. Their goal is to make sure it does not effect profits. People will always hack and pirate and Apple can't stop them. Their goal is to make it hard enough that most people won't bother and so that 99.9% of users would rather use a Apple system than deal with hacking another system to sort of work. Heck people ran Mac OS in emulators on x86 hardware years and years ago. It just was never enough to make any difference in the marketplace. Do you think Apple cares if 500 hackers get OS X sort of running on commodity boxes? Hell no, these people would probably never have bought a legitimate copy anyway and even if they would have it is not worth the effort to lock the system down more just to sell 500 more copies. Anyone who thinks more than a tiny percentage of the market will be running a hacked version is quite mistaken.
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TPMs were never intended to be overgrown dongles (Score:4, Insightful)
TPMs were never intended to be used for what Apple is using them for, thus the cracks only prove that a TPM isn't very useful for things it wasn't designed to do. The real TPM features like sealing and attestation still haven't been cracked.
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TPM=PMS (Score:4, Funny)
As you may or may not know, TPM stands for "Tensão Pré-Menstrual", which is the Portuguese term for Pre-Menstrual Syndrome. Exactly why hackers would want to get by those TPM protections is beyond me.
And a hardy HA-HA-HA... (Score:4, Funny)
Congrats, Apple just made you an unpaid security consultant.
not possible (Score:5, Insightful)
Most of the people installing it on non-apple hardware probably wouldn't purchase apple hardware anyway. It's a good, non-official way, for apple to gain marketshare. The highschool/college kids of today are the decision makers of tomorrow. Get them hooked on OSX now (even if it's an illegal copy) means that they will likely influence their friends/family and employer to go with it.
Maybe apple should stop spending money on the resources to add copy protection and just let it go. If someone comes up with a good solution in the future, they can just roll it out in an update. In the meantime, let people get hooked.
Re:not possible (Score:4, Insightful)
So... is it ok if I steal a new Pontiac Aztec off the lot? They're so unpopular that they've canceled that model, it probably wouldn't have sold anyway. It'll get the Pontiac name out there. They should be happy.
The way most people are morally retrograde about copyright violations (I'm not preventing anyone else from installing OS X) continues to piss me off. No, downloading warez is not the same thing as stealing, but it is just a bad. To say otherwise is to be either willfully ignorant or uninformed.
If Apple wants to give their OS away they will do so; making a half-assed guess about what would make them happy doesn't count as consent.
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Re:not possible (Score:5, Insightful)
Wrong illustration: more like "So... is it OK if I take a Volkswagen concept car apart and figure out exactly how it is built, and then build another one just like it? After all, Volkswagen isn't planning to sell the original, and my knockoff will get the Volkswagen name out there, as it's identical right down to the branding. They should be happy."
The way most people are morally retrograde about copyright violations (I'm not preventing anyone else from installing OS X) continues to piss me off. No, downloading warez is not the same thing as stealing, but it is just a bad. To say otherwise is to be either willfully ignorant or uninformed.
You're continuing to be pissed off by the wrong thing; Intellectual property is property; it's just not real property. The definitions of what is legal in the IP realm are much murkier than they are in the real property realm. You appear to be mixing morality and legality. To say otherwise is to be either willfully ignorant or uninformed.
Up until the DMCA, copyright was closer to a contract issue than a property issue in the US. Now it's closer to a personal rights violation.
If Apple wants to give their OS away they will do so; making a half-assed guess about what would make them happy doesn't count as consent.
This part I agree with.
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Did you get the memo (Score:5, Funny)
From the article... (Score:4, Funny)
AppleCore (Score:5, Funny)
Re:AppleCore (Score:5, Funny)
Now that I gave you that, you have to find the source code to the Application and GUI layers.
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leaked? (Score:5, Insightful)
Simply running OS X does not a useable system make (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Simply running OS X does not a useable system m (Score:4, Informative)
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Finding the right balance for HW security (Score:5, Insightful)
Brilliant
The people hacking OS x86 for non-Apple hardware aren't going to buy Macs anyway, they are in it for some other technical purpose.
The people who want OS X for business will go legit - too much risk for a company to steal like that.
The people who want OS X for a home aren't going to either know how to or want to take the time to fuss with some illicit download of the OS that won't be supported.
So the extreme hackers get OS X without buying an Apple box and maybe they even develop some cool apps with their pirated copy of Xcode too.
The big winner is still Apple (and OS X users).
not quite caught up (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:not quite caught up (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:not quite caught up (Score:5, Informative)
Wrong:
Not "ppc64", just "ppc", and not "Mach-O 64-bit", just "Mach-O", unlike libSystem:
You don't need a kernel built in 64-bit mode to run 64-bit binaries in userland. If you think you do, you've made an incorrect assumption somewhere.
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Notes from a clueful (Score:5, Insightful)
1.) The PPC version of 10.4.3 is NOT a 64-bit OS as several commenters claim. It's a 32-bit OS with some 64-bit math libraries.
2.) While 10.4.3 Intel may have "caught up" to the PPC version, it's still far from release quality. For example, Spotlight seems to be seriously broke and not functioning correctly in Mail.app, iTunes is still a PPC app, Safari crashes often, and Bonjour is still a bit borked.
Read the Fine Summary (Score:5, Informative)
TPM protections = OSX locked to Apple hardware
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Re:Read the Fine Summary (Score:5, Informative)
Anyone who has any allusions about cracking this scheme might be in for a surprise. After thoroughly reading the TPM spec [trustedcom...ggroup.org], I think that if the OS is looking for TPM_Owner = Apple's Value and doesn't find it, it ain't gonna run.
Changing TPM_Owner isn't exactly trivial, as you have to set the value during manufacturing.
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Re:Read the Fine Summary (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Read the Fine Summary (Score:5, Insightful)
Chances are the TPM check will be part of the Install program and not the OSx86 itself. If true, someone can Ghost an Apple Mactel image and then use the Ghost to install on a Non-Apple PC.
Why not just modify the ISO copy of OSx86 to change an assembly language instruction from JE to JNE or vice-versa, and then burn the new ISO and distribute that?
That way it only runs on Hardware that does not have a TPM of Apple? Like Dell, Gateway, Compaq/HP, etc.
Or better yet change the JE to JMP and JNE to NOP, that way it can run on all hardware.
Take it from me, I used to write assembly language back in the day, and had to get copy protected software running on network drives, and the stupid software tried to check for a damaged sector on the hard drive which the Netware INT 21H did not allow. Almost everything is written in C/C++ now, which gets compiled into assembly or ML, which can be easily tweaked like I said.
I give the hackers a week, if not more than a month, to find a way around it and release the unprotected ISO on the P2P networks.
Not that I advocate piracy or cracking or hacking, I just know how it can be done.
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Re:Read the Fine Summary (Score:5, Informative)
No, it's part of the kernel - and has been since the first developer versions were sent into the wild. Fooling the installer would be easier, but still far from trivial if it's relying on the TPM to authenticate the machine's origin.
Look, I'm not saying it can't or won't ever be hacked, but from what I've learned about TPM, it's going to be a LOT tougher than anyone here is thinking.
Put another way: how much is your time worth? If you want to crack TPM protection on OS X x86 for the glory, then it doesn't matter; if you want to avoid paying another two hundred bucks for an x86 Mac, it'll never be worth it - I think that at least in the near term, getting around this is going to involve some soldering.
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Re:Read the Fine Summary (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Read the Fine Summary (Score:5, Insightful)
I just have to call bullshit on this one. It is such a myth that Mac prices are completely outrageous compared to generic x86 PCs. You should compare apples to apples - not that I invented that pun in this situation. Find me a comparably designed PC to a iMac G5 and you will come nowhere near 2x let alone 10x the price. You can get a 17 inch iMac G5 with built in WiFi, Bluetooth, and iSight camera. Please point me to a vendor that has these features for half the $1299 price of the iMac G5.
Do you pay a price premium for most Macs? Yep. Is it anywhere 2x the price of a "comparable" PC. Nope.
You cannot buy a Yugo with leather interior. There is no such thing as a McDonald's meal that is rated at 5 stars. Motel 66 is not a luxury hotel. And you should not perpetuate the myth that Mac prices are some super premium compared to equivalent x86 PCs. There are plenty of valid reasons to critize Apple, but you stretch yourself quite a bit when you rehash old bullshit that their prices are so outrageous.
And you can save yourself the typing if your reply is only that Macs are more expensive than even a comparable PC. You are right, but it isn't anywhere near 2x.
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Re:Read the Fine Summary (Score:5, Insightful)
AMD Athlon64 3000+ (1.8GHz) - $135
PCIe/Socket 939 motherboard with SATA - $70
512MB PC2-4200 (DDR2-533) - $50
SATA 160GB drive - $60
PCIe Radeon X600 Pro with 256MB RAM - $84
802.11g Wifi card - $40
Logitech bluetooth mouse/keyboard combo - $100
Case/PSU - $50
Dual-layer DVD burner - $50
Filling out rebate cards that somehow never get paid - PRICELESS.
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Re:Read the Fine Summary (Score:5, Informative)
$50 for a case and PSU? Not only is that going to be ugly as sin, but you're going to need a more powerful PSU if you decide that you want your homebuilt PC to, you know, turn on.
Basically, you've listed a bunch of bargain-basement components, at prices below anything I've seen at Fry's, and are telling me that this is equivalent to an iMac. Except it's much uglier, built with substantially shittier components, and has no OS (unless you install Linux or steal a copy of Windows). And no software. Oh, and you forgot the webcam and a good set of speakers, and a microphone.
Add in those components, and then add a 20% 'reality factor' to reflect the price that this stuff will actually cost (shipping, rebates that never show up), and you're right up there with the iMac.
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Re:Read the Fine Summary (Score:5, Insightful)
Current Macs run 2-10X more expensive than comparable PCs.
What? No. Macs are typically 1.1-1.5X as expensive as comparable PCs. And that's if you're just comparing technical specifications; if you start looking at really comparable PCs, with similar high-quality, well-designed and nice-looking cases and peripherals, then the Macs are pretty competitive.
What tends to make people think the gap is larger than it is is the large number of very low-end, very inexpensive PCs on the market. Apple doesn't really make any systems that compete with them.
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Re:Read the Fine Summary (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Read the Fine Summary (Score:5, Informative)
Dude. I don't think you get it.
You can't change the TPM_Owner value in a TPM. The value is set during manufacturing. You have to BE the owner to CHANGE the owner. It's on a level of permission at least two levels away from userland.
Perhaps you can hack the OS so that it doesn't look for that value in hardware, but if Apple can do a reasonably good job of burying that check in the kernel and having the TPM verify the kernel's boot process itself, you won't be able to do that either.
For the same reason, installing the OS on a GenuineApple(TM) machine's disk and installing that disk into a computer that does not have Apple's TPM_Owner value won't work.
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Re:Hardware (Score:5, Insightful)
Anyone want to place bets on how long it takes Lik Sang to sell mod chips
that allow PC's to run OSX?
I'm going to say within 12 months.
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Re:Hardware (Score:5, Insightful)
One issue is the fact that they will probably use a different BIOS technology than standard IBM clones: Open Firmware or EFI (Extensible Firmware Interface). For compatibility's sake, your current PC uses more or less the same BIOS as the original PCs when it boots up, and uses tricks to access higher modes. That's one thing I've always loved about Macs - the booting. No matter how much they try to disguise it with logos, I still see it's booting to the same resolution as DOS.
Also, consider the fact that they might deliberately only include driver support for their stuff. Driver support in Darwin is already pretty limited, and they have no incentive to produce more drivers than they will use. That means more hacking.
Finally, I think one of the goals with the TPM is to make it so that you'd have to produce a unique hack for each case, rather than one generalized hack that can be mass-produced. Can't give you specifics, but at least they're moving away from "Let's make it impossible to crack!" which always fails, to "Let's make it so hard to crack that only a market-insignificant number of people will be able to crack it!"
Anyway, I'm sure it's possible and somebody will do it, but it might not be as simple as a little solder job. I don't have much first-hand knowledge of this kind of stuff, I just read a little here and there.
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Re:Hardware (Score:5, Funny)
How long after Apple officially releases its x86 version of OSX will it be cracked to run on generic hardware?
1) 12 Months
2) 12 Hours
3) 12 Minutes
4) Cowboy Neal already has it running on his Dell.
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Re:How does the protection work? (Score:5, Funny)
Well, there's this tiny little guy with a magnifying lens who will live in your computer case, and- nah, I'm just kiddin' :)
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Re:How does the protection work? (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Moving from the PowerPC to Intel... Bad Move (Score:4, Funny)
And I own a VIA C3 Samuel running Linux x86, it's my firewall,IMAP,WWW,PHP,Shoutcast,DNS,File server. So whats your point?
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Re:Moving from the PowerPC to Intel... Bad Move (Score:5, Informative)
Of course, I love the machine to death, because of OS X, but the way I see it, Apple is going to gain a good deal of performance by moving to x86.
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Re:Don't know, but (Score:5, Interesting)
There were Intel Bashers because Pentium technology (the P4 in particular) was pathetic compared to AMD and PPC offerings of the time.
Some of these people are becoming Intel cheerleaders because 1) Intel managed to surpass the performance of the G5, and has closed the gap a bit on AMD. 2) Early reports of the chips expected to come out of Intel around Q3 of next year are remarkable.
"Mac fans" are actually rather split on the subject. Those who acknowledged that PC's were generally faster machines most of the time for most tasks could not be happier with the Intel switch. Those who rambled endlessly about "the Megahertz myth" (even after x86 chips were clearly lapping the G5) are still sore about it, and hoping that Jobs will change his mind about dropping PPC sometime between now and 2007.
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Re:Advice (Score:4, Informative)
Either ppc or x86 machines can produce FAT^H^H^Huniversal binraries.
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Re:What I want from Apple (Score:5, Informative)
I want an OS that I can multi-boot MS-Windows and Linux on that runs on commodity hardware.
Apple has said they will not try to prevent other OS's from booting on intel boxes they sell. As for commodity hardware, well that will depend, I suspect Apple boxes will, as usual, implement lots of hardware that does not yet work in Windows. Apple will prevent OS X from running on hardware they don't sell, since the OS and all the other software they produce is a loss-leader to sell hardware and they would be losing money developing the OS and all the free applications and selling it at current market prices. Also it would put them in direct competition with MS, whose illegal contracts make business pretty much impossible. Four superior OS's (to Windows) have already died trying to sell into that market.
Otherwise, "Mac OSX on TPM'd Intel" is just another way of saying "Mac OSX on a proprieTary PlatforM." Not interested.
That will probably be your opinion of Apple boxes. They will run OSX , Linux, and the BSDs just fine, but Windows is anyone's guess. Windows will probably run fine in emulation ala VMWare and the like, and their will probably be some sort of WINE like way to run Windows programs, but I would not count on MS letting it boot out of the box. Of course Apple's PPC platform was technically even more open and runs Linux and the BSDs as well. It was even produced by multiple Vendors without reverse engineering (unlike x86). So when you say , "proprieTary PlatforM" I assume you really mean "platform that runs Windows."
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Re:More Irony? Can we handle it? (Score:5, Funny)
Face it, Apple is cursed, what ever chip they use is doomed to be second rate. If intel was smart, they would have kept their distance
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Re:Final Cut? (Score:5, Insightful)
If the encoding time is really cut down (which looks like a gimme), you'll make it up in no time. If it's really about productivity, you're comparing the last release of an architecture that's been out for several years now (even the G5 is around 30 months old now) to the first round of machines of a new architecture *ever* - there's no way they'll be as reliable as the G5. Major kinks are worked out (except for the 2xSATA drive limit) and apps have had time to be optimized for them.
Also consider this: We don't even know which Macs will be Intelized first! We do know that the Intel switch is all about speeding up the cramped PowerBook, so they will probably come first. There's a chance (although not big) they'll have you waiting until this time next year for an Intel PowerMac, and it's not even sure the performance will match!
I think this "let's hold our horses for a year or so" attitude is getting a bit out of hand. If you were to buy a PowerBook, then maybe I could understand you, but the G5-based Macs are definitely the highlights of today's lineup, and there's no way in hell that the first revision Intel PowerMacs will be a better buy than they are based on what little you've said.
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