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Latest Toast Update Combats Fair Use

Posted by pudge on Fri Jul 12, 2002 06:21 AM
from the back-in-my-day-we-burned-cds-with-a-handheld-laser dept.
gsfprez writes "Apparently, demanding future DRM installations isn't just for Windows anymore. Roxio has added a very Microsoft-esque paragraph to the Toast 5.1.4 upgrade. In part, if you install it, you 'may affect your ability to copy, display and/or play Secure Content through the Software or other applications that utilize the Software.' I'm sorry, but this is a big reason why I'm sticking with Apple, but looking for new CD/DVD burning software..." Let me know when you find it.
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  • What about (Score:4, Informative)

    by Aknaton (528294) on Friday July 12 2002, @06:24AM (#3869809)
    CD-Record? It works on NetBSD and MacOS X is based on Unix.
    • Re:What about (Score:3, Informative)

      by Caligari (180276)
      It also runs under win32 systems:

      ftp://ftp.fokus.gmd.de/pub/unix/cdrecord/alpha/w in 32/
    • Re:What about (Score:2, Interesting)

      by 13Echo (209846)
      I have been using a great new KDE-based GUI for CDRecord and many other programs, called Arson. I have been toying around with it a bit and it is loaded with features. It kinda reminds me of Nero for Unix machines.

      http://arson.sourceforge.net/

      Perhaps it could be compiled and used in MacOS? The program isn't finished yet, but shows a lot of potential.
    • Re:What about (Score:4, Informative)

      by greed (112493) on Friday July 12 2002, @09:16AM (#3870593)
      I've been using cdrecord and mkisofs on Mac OS X for a while now. The latest alphas of cdrtools have full Mac OS X support--if Apple Disc Burning works, you can use it. So that gets you MMC SCSI, FireWire, IDE and USB recorders all in one. The device addresses are... different, but if you've only got one drive that's no problem either.

      With very little work, I was able to take Schily's newest libraries from cdrtools and drop it in to cdrdao to get that going too. All because my FireWire recorder rips better than my SCSI recorder, and I got tired of booting into Linux just to copy.

      The one oddity is the drive sharing stuff. Because you don't start these programs until AFTER you insert the disc, you get Finder's offer to prepare the disc. You have to tell Finder to ignore it, then hit continue in the really annoying "second bad disc dialog".

      I'm going to update the programs so they reserve the drive and wait for the recorder to do tray close, if I can figure out how. Maybe someone else already has; it works well enough that I haven't looked for updates recently.
  • Hmm (Score:4, Insightful)

    by ShooterNeo (555040) on Friday July 12 2002, @06:32AM (#3869832)
    Is there anything illegal about a content provider (someone who works his ass off to make content that others might enjoy) saying "ok, you have two choices". "I can leave my new movie in my underwear drawer where noone can see it, or I can sell it to you under the condition that you will only be able to view it with devices that cannot easily copy the movie". Is there anything ammoral with this? The BIG content providers who make this stuff want to protect their investment. Why shouldn't they try? Some of you have suggested that the whole process is futile ; people will always be able to hack it. The latter may be true, but if the recording companies can make it hard enough (with only allowing DRM devices to play their content, ect) they can make it so that the customer who is "on the fence" between warezing and buying it (i.e. someone who could do either) makes the right choice because warezing it is tedious. Thus, for the goals that the content providers want : to gain more sales from people who might otherwise pirate; DRM and other techniques may actually work! Now, for the people who cannot or will not buy the content : yeah, they'll warez it...but the anti-piracy measures can make it tougher. By breaking up the big P2P networks, it becomes slightly harder to pirate music. By copy protecting cds, it becomes less convenient for the average customer to burn his friend a copy. Macrovision has stopped many casual copiers. I'm saying that while us /. pros may be able to blow past just about any protection scheme the content providers devise, we might not buy the content anyway. But for the average joe who's been working all day and just wants to see a movie : he is probably going to get the legitimate copy to avoid all the technical headaches piracy can involve.
    • Re:Hmm (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 12 2002, @07:43AM (#3870100)
      I think you are labouring under a small misconception, with your understanding of the music industry.

      Essentially, we are paying them for a service. If they choose to not sell something, then they lose money and ultimately, are not financially viable. We pay them, and a business should be grateful of the fact, and their customers.

      Your understanding inverts that, in that it expects customers to be a service to the company, waiting for the company to ply them with any works. We are not a cash machine for the pleasure of the recording/motion picture industry. Yet, through legislation and design, they continually seek to give us less to gain more money, which is exceptionally bad faith. Most especially when we simply wish to enjoy some music, which they seemingly monopolise and work in a cartel-like manner, when music is a fundamental expression of the human experience.

      People have been creating music for millions of years, and yet now we are supposed to place the sole care of that medium to a given set of companies and be charged for the privilage. In fact, we are supposed to equate music directly with money, as if it were something to be rigidly controlled. This is patently absurd and, I believe, it reduces our experience and abilities of expression as human beings.

      This is why tax on CDs is so abusive; it removes the freedom of musical expression from the population as a whole, and forces us to pay for what has been a God-given freedom for the aforementioned millions of years.

      The recording industry and the motion picture industry are forcing the development of DRM under the assumption that all video or audio implicitly belong to themselves, and that we all engage in piracy. I'm sorry, but many, many, many people create music and film for self-expression and higher meaning than the profit motive, and as such, these mediums belong to the world as a whole. Most people don't fear DRM controls, per se, but their poor implementation.

      And please, don't try and fool us by pretending that DRM controls aren't simply a part of the ongoing power-grab that these industries have been engaged in for the past decades, and the past several years in particular. Bad DRM implementation will happen, to the RIAA and MPAA's benefit. That is something we should all fight against.
    • Re:Hmm (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Twylite (234238) <twylite@crypt.co.COLAza minus caffeine> on Friday July 12 2002, @07:56AM (#3870140) Homepage

      Short answer: Yes, there is. Copyright is an agreement between copyright owners and consumers. The only reason distribution of copyrighted material is illegal, is because of that agreement.

      Unlike physical property, distributing immaterial property does not directly deprive the original owner of anything (you haven't "stolen" his property), just the potential of revenue.

      The principle of Copyright originated as a measure to encourage development of immaterial property by providing some protection to the original owner's potential revenue.

      One of the explicit goals of Copyright is that that property falls into the public domain at some point, that is, is no longer protected by Copyright. This goes hand in hand with encouraging development: before Copyright and Patent laws, the only way to benefit from immaterial creations was to keep them secret, and use them in the creation of physical property. This provides no benefits in terms of social advancement, which is why another system was required.

      DRM is simultaneously an illegal and a redundant protection for Copyrighted works. Illegal because there is no provision for making those works accessible when Copyright over them expires, or providing for fair use as envisaged under Copyright law. Redundant because Copyright law exists to protect Copyright holders, who should be making use of applicable law to deter offenses.

      Laws are give and take, especially ones like Copyright where an agreement between parties is involved. If a Copyright holder wishes to take action not permitted under Copyright law to protect their immaterial property (such as locking it, which will ultimately prevent it from falling into the public domain), then they are not upholding their side of the bargain, and cannot enjoy the protection of the law. Similarly, a consumer who breaks the law can be sued or incarcerated.

      In other words, the MPAA and RIAA can't have the best of both worlds: accept protection under Copyright law, or employ DRM but accept that if someone breaks your DRM scheme they can freely copy the uncopyrighted material.

      You also seem to miss the fact that Copyright law provides for a certain limited amount of copying on the part of the consumer. In particular, you have the right to transfer the copyrighted property to another medium, and most countries have enacted legislation permitted by the Berne Convention to allow limited distribution, such as to family members. DRM prevents the practice of both of these fair uses.

      But the DRM planned and in use by these companies goes even further: it is actively attacking systems which are "aggressive" to DRM, that is, built for ease of copying. Windows has reserved the right to disable non-DRM software on your PC, even against your will. Some DRM schemes crash or physically damage hardware. These are attacks which are legitimised solely on the basis of being distributed by reputable companies; but they are no more or less hostile than most virii propegating through the Internet today.

      A side word on P2P: the MPAA and RIAA have worked hard to villify P2P networks, which is a great pity, because they have the potential (and in fact are already used) to be much more than systems for transfer of Copyrighted property. P2P networks allow for better communication and collaboration, which makes them a suitable technology for any peer environment of this nature, including commercial employment, research work, etc.

    • Re:Hmm (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Sloppy (14984)
      You have a decent point. That said, I think this part is wrong:
      if the recording companies can make it hard enough (with only allowing DRM devices to play their content, ect) they can make it so that the customer who is "on the fence" between warezing and buying it (i.e. someone who could do either) makes the right choice because warezing it is tedious.
      You are missing one of the aspects of copy protection and piracy: only one person has to crack it, and then the content is out.

      The recording companies can make it hard enough for Joe Schmoe to crack the DRM, but they don't have any way to keep Joe Schmoe from spreading around the "warez version" that was cracked by someone who was willing to endure the tedium. The "on the fence" guy is not going to be heavily influenced toward making the right choice, because "warezing" it is not tedious. Cr4ck3rD00D already did the tedious part for him.

      The only people who are burdened with tedious stuff, are the ones who don't want to pirate anything, and just get their damned DVD player hooked up, only to find that it doesn't work because it's trying to pass the signal through the VCR.

      Macrovision has stopped many casual copiers.
      That's hard for me to believe, but I'll take your word for it. But when those people were "stopped", I bet it was in a time before anyone could easily download a movie from the 'Net. There aren't any technical headaches anymore and there never again will be any, unless the recording companies can prevent people from communicating with one another.

      Ultimately, copy protection doesn't slow down infringement (especially now that the internet is here) but it does do collateral damage. It's nothing for something.

  • Oh, and BTW (Score:5, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 12 2002, @06:32AM (#3869833)
    MacInTouch [macintouch.com] has their usual good coverage on this. Be sure to read the EULA so you grasp the reason for complaints. Blocking illegal copies is one thing....controlling my computer and/or what does or doesn't go on it without my permission, for any reason, is another.
  • GPL'ed burning utils (Score:3, Interesting)

    by theolein (316044) on Friday July 12 2002, @06:43AM (#3869862) Journal
    A quick look at freshmeat showed quite a lot of stuff that does burning on *BSD and Linux. Although burning is very low level stuff, I'm sure that porting these utils , the commandline ones and adding an applescript gui to them wouldn't be such a chore.
  • i just use iTunes. i only use toast for vcds, multiple sessions and other "non standard" disks.

    that and toast is horribly unstable on my box, i cant figure out why.

  • by 3seas (184403) on Friday July 12 2002, @07:03AM (#3869932) Homepage Journal
    I really don't want to be one to have to deal with trying to figure out what I can or can't do with a system.

    I think the DRM supporters need to focus their efforts on making their dedicated systems that don't allow the user
    to do anything by play or run the DRM stuff ony as they intend to allow the consumer.

    and then we should have another type of system that allows creativity, innovation, etc.. by and for those who want
    such a system.

    And so that there is no conflict, the open system simply rejects DRM stuff, where to use DRM stuff on such a system,
    a special version of that item must be purchased.

    Some of us bought a Computer in order to be creative, and I think it's theift for others to sneek in and take this
    away, especially in doing it the little by little way.

    Why don't they just go make their own DRM system, or do they know it won't sale? And if so, then isn't it theift by intention?

    All I know is that I don't want the maybe it's work, maybe it won't crap wasting my time.

    DRM is like a virus infecting and crippling what is otherwise a versatile system.

    I rather make a clear distinction between what I can be creative with and not.

    I'm not a pirate, and I don't like my creativity being taken from me because others feel they have to muscle in on it.
  • In the meantime (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Choco-man (256940)
    use a version of toast below 5.1.4. 5.1.4 doesn't really add anything earthshattering and necessary, and it forces you to agree to unsolicited, unnotified, unreviewed software installation on your machine.

    bottom line, don't use the software that offends you. if people stop buying the software, they'll stop doing this sort of thing. use 5.1.2 or whatever version you currently have.
  • by Kevinv (21462)
    Not sure about DVD burning but I got rid of both Toast and Charismac's Discribe [charismac.com] and just use the built-in cd burning software.

    Does everything I need from burning files or whole .dmg images to cd to making audio cd's via iTunes.

    And I don't have to deal with Roxio's obnoxiousness.
  • It has been my impression that the reason Toast has remained the only player in the Apple MacOS space has been its excellence. It allows you to do almost anything with its toolset, and is so easy to use that even users whose needs are modest enough that Apple's built-in CD-burning would do 99% of what they want go out and buy it. This new move to enforce DRM, if properly publicized, may finally produce an openning for a competitor to get a foothold. Now, it would not be "MacOS Favorite Toast" versus "Windows Invader Brand-X CD Burner." It would be "DRM-enforcer Toast" versus "Freedom Loving Brand-X CD Burner." Easy advertising copy and a ready pool of idealistic users ready to jump on the bandwagon.

    Any volunteers?

  • If you had been paying attention these changes were announced back just before Toast 5 was released. I read it on Maintouch or Maccentral. It took nearly a year for this to appear in the EULA, but is no surprise to me.

    Toast is certainly easy to use, but there are other options out there. If you are making audio CDs you can just use iTunes.

    If you're backing up other files why not use the built in (X at least) Disk Copy? Again, not the easiest solution, but a possibility.
  • by fjms64 (586828) <francois@@@fsconsult...com> on Friday July 12 2002, @07:19AM (#3870002) Homepage
    First some context:

    - I have a legal copy of Toast.
    - I have used Toast since version 4 came out and have been very happy with it.

    I am a computer consultant and regularly have to deal with reading contracts, usually written in legalese. While I am not a lawyer, my take of these things is that they are usually worse than they appear. So my take on that clause is that it gives Roxio the right to download updates to you computers at will, even when you are not looking (remember, it is allowed if it is not prohibited).

    I dont know many people who would be happy with that. Suppose they decide to download some piece of DRM code which crashes my computer, requiring me to spend a day rebuilding everything. Not good for my business and I cant sue Roxio for that even though they are responsible.

    This is not acceptable, it is like letting a car company come into your garage at night to mess with your car without your consent? I know I wouldnt let any car company do that, so why would I let a computer company?

    This type of restriction is unacceptable, I have gone back to the previous version of Toast and have let Roxio know about this.

    Cheers

  • Nero *was* coming out with a mac version of their cd/dvd burning software for Mac, but all mention of it has disappeared from their web site.

    Have a look at the google cache [216.239.37.100] of their home page for proof. :-(

    • Re:NeroMAX? (Score:3, Informative)

      by petree (16551)
      In fact, neroMax was created. It was never available for download as a trial (like all other versions of Nero for PC), but only available for purchase. In fact it was actually bundled with some burners (Yahama Burners for example [nero.com]), but they never made a version for OSX. Their website said it required MacOS 8.6-9.2 and Classic API with Mac OS X is not supported. So even if this was available still, this wouldn't be a solution (certainly no better than running an older version of toast without these restrictions). But if you are interested in it I know there are copies of it floating around on hotline and on IRC that you could pick up and try out. I don't know that much about the Mac version (only used it once) but I know that their Windows product is far superior to all other burning applictions. By a long shot.
  • Discribe (Score:4, Informative)

    by firewort (180062) on Friday July 12 2002, @07:23AM (#3870018)
    http://www.charismac.com/Products/Discribe/discrib edata.html [charismac.com]

    Discribe for OS X is a great product- simple, does the job, without DRM hassles.

  • That branding your customers as CRIMINALS and treating them as such is poor PR, and only ENCOURAGES what they call "crimes"?

    Unfortunately, I suspect soon ALL commercial CD burning programs will have DRM. And when that happens, it may be used as a wedge to kill off OSS/GPL'ed OS's and software, which will most certainly remain on the side of the user.
  • by artemis67 (93453) on Friday July 12 2002, @10:02AM (#3870903) Homepage
    I know that if I was a shareholder of ROXI, I'd be pissed right about now. They are taking on a battle that they don't need to fight, and treating the customer as a criminal.

    The only thing this is going to result in is a decrease in sales for Roxio, as people turn to alternative CD burning apps. As a management decision, it's just plain stupid and somebody needs to be fired.
  • by gelfling (6534) on Friday July 12 2002, @10:42AM (#3871157) Homepage Journal
    All these software companies would actually improve their business models and their bottom line if they simply made this their licence agreement:

    "We will do whatever the fuck we wish in order to suck money from you in any way we desire while at the same time limiting your ability to do what you want. You have no recourse no appeal and no fix. You are basically fucked so get over it. Everything you know, love cherish, want, need or desire is under our control and we may or may not allow you access to those things just as if we were Greek Gods are you were scrabbling in shit peons. If you don't fucking like that then move somewhere where they don't have electricity and people hunt each other for food. We own you, you be-otch so bend over and take it like a good dog. And anyone, ANYONE who has anything to say about this can get on their knees and sing into the purple mike. That is all. Now get back to work because we have expensive lifestyles for you to support."

    At least we'd know where we stand.
  • by Aqua OS X (458522) on Friday July 12 2002, @11:07AM (#3871334) Homepage
    This was posted to VerionTracker.com last night.

    I am the Toast product manager. I wanted to set the facts straight with respect to the 'Restrictions' section in the end user license agreement (EULA) that is displayed at installation of Toast 5.1.4 and Jam 5.0.1 (both the latest versions of our software). 1) Toast and Jam do not include any digital rights management (DRM) software. 2) Toast and Jam do not dynamically download and update any software on your system, either automatically behind the scenes, or upon your request. 3) Toast and Jam do not store and collect any personally identifiable information about you or what you record, or transmit anything to Roxio, any of its partners, or any content provider. 4) Toast and Jam do not restrict you from recording any content that you have the legal right to use. Toast and Jam use the same EULA that Roxio's PC burning product, Easy CD Creator, uses. Easy CD Creator leverages aspects of Windows Media Technology, which does include DRM components. Hence, the language in the EULA. Our EULAs are shared across both products because it saves time and money with respect to legal, documentation and translation into multiple languages. So no need to worry. All is well with Toast. Thank you for your continued support. Regards, The Toast Product Manager BTW - yes, you'll see that I have given our product 5 stars. I couldn't resist.

    Can someone update this story or what? Moreover, next time I adise -using- this software before posting a rant to slashdot ;)
    • by ThePilgrim (456341) on Friday July 12 2002, @06:31AM (#3869830) Homepage
      I feel like a broken record.
      Surely in this day and age you should feel like a copy protected CD
    • >The only thing that has been blunted is your ability to illegally share those files.

      and what about my LEGAL right to share???

      //rdj
        • no, I was not trolling. for one, i explicitly have the right to share music with my family. (please be aware, i do not live in the US..).

          i am allowed to make a copy, and give it to my sister, or my mother.

          //rdj
        • by lunenburg (37393) on Friday July 12 2002, @07:15AM (#3869986) Homepage
          I realize that you are trolling, but that's a good question. It comes down to what you consider "sharing" to mean. If it means playing the CD in your car with your friends or lending a CD to your friend, then that is totally within your rights. If you mean making it freely available to everyone who may cross your path, that is quite illegal, as Napster (and soon Gnutella and Kazaa) learned.

          The point you seem to be missing is that there is no way for the technology to know whether someone is going to use a burned/ripped copy for legal/moral uses (portable MP3 player, emailing a song to your mother) or illegal/immoral uses (offering an entire album for download). None. When DRM technology will not let you rip a CD to your brand-new $400 MP3 player, do you think that complaning to the RIAA with "But this is within my rights!" will do anything?

          Don't fool yourself into thinking the issue is about copyright law. The copyright cartels have tons of tools at their disposal to prosecute copyright violators - standard copyright law being the main one - tools that they have shown no inclination to use to actually, oh, stop copyright infringement. Their current push for legally-mandated DRM technology is about control, and only control. They want to be the ones to dictate how you can use the CDs and DVDs that you buy, the music that you download, the TV shows that you watch. Your rights to perform the "legal" copyright violations that you mention will be subject to the whims of Hollywood lawyers and profit margins.

          If that's the future you want, so be it. I personally find it extremely distasteful that a small band of "special" corporations (MPAA, RIAA) are going to be allowed to have the blessed stamp of "producer," and as such determine what technology can be developed, and who is allowed to distribute "authorized" content. The issues are as old as copyright itself, only the distribution method has changed, which is allowing Hollywood to paint a doomsday picture of "You must allow us to control the technology in every digital device, or else the great Republic will fall due to a lack of HIGH VALUE DIGITAL CONTENT."

          Spare me. If you work at an embedded systems company, and look forward to the day you have to license DRM technolgy from Hollywood for all of your systems, bully for you. A large number of us, however, see that "copyright" is merely the smokescreen for the larger issue.
        • by aussersterne (212916) on Friday July 12 2002, @07:58AM (#3870148) Homepage
          What I do seem to have is a mature sense of right and wrong which anyone who tries to legitimize piracy simply doesn't yet possess.

          What you don't seem to have is the ability to differentiate between piracy and fair use. Every time one of these discussions begins, there is a dedicated group of people who post and say that fair use as a concept is great but we really can't have it because every "fair user" out there might actually be a pirate at some point.

          Hey, every citizen out there might actually be a murderer at some point. So what? It's a ridiculous jump to make.

          I'm a writer. I have a much greater vested interest in copyright than you do. But I am also a realist -- and you are not. People are going to make copies of some chapters of my books. Maybe they will even copy the entire book and carry it around in a three-ring binder. So what? The value in selling that one copy is very low. The value in having yet another person "spreading the word" about a title I've written is much greater.

          The same holds true for the audio and video content industries. Before the "MP3 revolution" I was buying maybe six CDs a year. Afterward, I'm buying 20-30 because my exposure to artists is greater. Most of my (working) friends are in the same position.

          The RIAA/MPAA are complaining like babies about slightly decreased sales... and they're doing it in the middle of an economy that is tanking, worse than it's been in years. The decreases are directly related to the lack of disposable income on the part of the buying public, not to the greatly increased exposure they're getting through P2P.

          Or maybe what the big media outlets are really upset about is a leveling of the playing field... the fact that maybe 80% of the CD's I've bought this year are indies or self-pubs that I wouldn't have known about had P2P never existed. We tried to do away with the studio system in Hollywood years ago for antitrust reasons, yet the music industry still functions exactly that way today and the MPAA has even managed to recreate most of the old income superstructure using intellectual property ownership rather than real property ownership as leverage. Let's try again to level the playing field, for once and for all.

          Sorry, but the issue is not as simple or as black-and-white as so many devout capitalists seem to believe... not all sharing violates copyright. To end sharing because some sharing violates copyright is patently unjust and smacks of the kind of baby-with-bathwater institutional mentality Americans claim to hate.
          • by Alsee (515537) on Friday July 12 2002, @08:17AM (#3870255) Homepage
            legal to give copies of music to up to five friends.

            ** Begins madly scribbling notes **

            Step 1: Grab source to random open source P2P.
            Step 2: Create counter for each file. Initialize to 5.
            Step 3: For each file request add user to Buddy list.
            Step 4: Decrement file counter.
            Step 5: Send file.

            P.S.
            Version 2.0
            BUG FOUND: Program is still sending the file when counter reaches zero.
            EXPLANATION: Forgot to check the counter.
            BUG FIX: Insert "Step 4.5: test counter", do not send file if counter = zero.

            Version 3.0
            BUG FOUND: Program no longer sending file when counter is zero, but then resumes sending the file on subsequent requests.
            EXPLANATION: Counter is erroneously decremented past zero and rolls over to MAXINT.
            BUGFIX: Should test for zero BEFORE decrementing the counter.

            Version 4.0
            BUG FOUND: Some files still being sent 1000's of times.
            EXPLANATION: Rollover bug in versions 1 and 2 left many files with corrupted counters set to MAXINT.
            BUG FIX: Reset all counters to 5.

            Versions 5.0
            BUG FOUND: Program send each file up to 5 times each session.
            EXPLANATION: Counters erroneously being reset to 5 during program initialization.
            BUGFIX: Mover code to reset counters from program initialization to the installer.

            Version 6.0
            BUGS FOUND: NONE! YAY!
            This release improves speed, stability, and ease of use.

            Version 7.0
            BUG FOUND: Files that shouldn't be sent anymore are being sent again.
            EXPLANATION: When installing new version the counter is always reset to 5.
            BUGFIX: Only reset corrupted counters. If counter = MAXINT then reset counter to 5.

            VERSION 8.0
            BUG FOUND: Version 7.0 is still allowing some files corrupted by versions 1 and 2 to be sent 1000's of times.
            EXPLANATION: Corrupted counters may have been further decremented past MAXINT.
            BUG FIX: Reset counter if counter > 5.

            ToDo for version 9.0:
            Add international support. Different countries have different limits on how many times files may be shared. This will complicate the counter code signifigantly. Perhaps counter should start at zero and count upwards? Will require much debugging.

            -
    • Yeah right. The new Copyprotected CDs does hinder fair use.

      You supposedly can't rip them for keeping in your mp3/ogg-collection anymore.

      Still possible to fix by the good ole' digital-out solution.
    • Wrong (Score:4, Insightful)

      by theLOUDroom (556455) on Friday July 12 2002, @07:21AM (#3870009)
      Copying the file is legal. Giving it to someone else isn't. This stops you from copying the file. This not only interferes with fair use rights, but also may interfere with copy non-copyrighted music as well. Making backups is legal, troll.
    • The only thing that has been blunted is your ability to illegally share those files.

      There is nothing illegal about "sharing" those files: I should be able to listen to them from work over the Internet, I should be able to transfer them to another computer's disk drive that I own, etc. DRM that doesn't infringe the buyer's right to fair use is just not possible because there is no way technology can distinguish fair use from illegal use.

      I hate to sound like a broken record, but companies that use technical means for restricting usage of their products should lose copyright altogether: they are not keeping up their side of the copyright bargain. For copyright to make sense, fair use must be protected, and, more importantly, the content must fall into the public domain after a reasonable amount of time. DRM would give companies control over their content forever, and it would also give them legal copyright protection forever because they will "turn off" the old release and then release the same content with slight modifications again and again under separate copyrights whenever the content is about to fall into the public domain.

      • by thales (32660) on Friday July 12 2002, @06:59AM (#3869917) Homepage Journal
        75 years ago it was legal to buy a Thompson machine gun in the United States. Some people bought them because it was a neat toy, and they never used them for anything illegal. Others bought them for gangland hits and armed robery.

        The actions of the second group caused the people in the first group to have their toys taken away from them.

        The actions of people engaging in blatant copyright infringement are are doing the same thing to people who are doing legitimate fair use as the gangsters did to gun collectors 75 years ago. They are fucking it up for everybody.

        Since a computer is as incapable of determining leagal use as the Thompson was incapable of determining legal use, the computer's ability to copy material is likely to suffer the same fate as the Thompson.

        The RIAA and the MPAA are asses for pushing this soulation to their problem, but I blame the "file sharers" that are ignoring the current laws as much as the Holywood crowd for bringing this draconian approach to IP protection about.

        • Just FYI (Score:5, Funny)

          by sulli (195030) on Friday July 12 2002, @07:38AM (#3870081) Journal
          You can't commit mass murder with an iPod.
            • Re:Just FYI (Score:3, Insightful)

              by dbrutus (71639)
              When you abuse a privilege you screw it up for everybody. Rights are remain such even when people screw them up. Take a look at a majority of the US bill of rights for examples. 1st amendment heroes are very often scumbags. By your logic we should eliminate free speech on legitimate topics such as elections because some jerks distribute child porn.

              No. It just doesn't fly.
        • by Melantha_Bacchae (232402) on Friday July 12 2002, @08:31AM (#3870323)
          thales wrote:

          > The actions of people engaging in blatant
          > copyright infringement are are doing the same
          > thing to people who are doing legitimate fair
          > use as the gangsters did to gun collectors 75
          > years ago. They are fucking it up for everybody.

          [snip]

          > The RIAA and the MPAA are asses for pushing this
          > soulation to their problem, but I blame the
          > "file sharers" that are ignoring the current
          > laws as much as the Holywood crowd for bringing
          > this draconian approach to IP protection about.

          Let me make a few things crystal clear here:

          1) The "file sharers" do not harm most of the artists, and in some cases, have been known to actually help artists, especially in the music industry. That is because sites like Napster essentially give them free exposure by allowing people to sample the music and find new artists they might never have bought music from otherwise. Some artists have seen increased sales due to Napster.

          2) The people with the problem are the recording labels and the studios.

          3) The problem is not theft or lost revenue. After all, they consider playing a CD in your car that you bought for your home stereo lost revenue, and not watching commercials is called theft.

          4) Nope, the real problem is COMPETITION. You see, they have nice tidy cartels that have the industries all neatly tied up. They believe that they have been anointed by the government (in a process called "copyright"), as the only legal distributors of their media. They've even started making the artists "work for hire" so they don't have to worry about nasty royalties. And along come these rogue "file sharers" who ursurp their priviledged position and distribute the files from the CD's, etc., they have bought to whoever wants to listen.

          5) The cartels that control the entertainment industries are badly in need of an antitrust investigation themselves. While not the best solution to antitrust behaviour, the "file sharers" are at least providing some competition. The solution that would best serve the artists and the public for the music segment would be to replace the recording industry with a set of small businesses that offer services to artists who retain their own copyrights and control over their work. CD prices could be much lower, with the artists getting the lion's share of the profits. It is my hope that Apple uses their recent acquisitions to lower the bar of entry so these small businesses can form. Then we can make a well deserved end to the greedy sharks in the recording and motion picture industries.

          6) After all, it is the greedy sharks that are making off with our money in unfairly high CD prices, and tolls on CDR disks. How is that not theft and extortion? Now they want to seize control of our digital vessels, our computers. How is that not piracy? The industry sharks do more harm to the artists and the consumers than "file sharers" ever did.

          I am breaking with tradition, and ending with a quote not from Mothra, but from her forever friend, Steve Jobs:

          "Apple strives to protect the rights of both intellectual property owners and consumers alike and believes there is a 'middle path' in digital music distribution which actively discourages the theft of music, while at the same time preserving consumers rights to manage and listen to their legally acquired music on whatever devices they own,"
          Steve Jobs, 2002 Grammy Awards, as reported on http://sg.news.yahoo.com/020227/1/2jun2.html.
          (Re place "intellectual property owners" with "artists" and even Mothra would be happy.)
          • by thales (32660)
            1) The "Content Cartels are full of shit when they claim "piracy" costs them umpteen Billion Dollars. Just because you download a song dosen't mean you would have bought the CD. On a P2P you might say I'll get this one and this one and this one. Few people can afford to go into a record store and just grab any CD that catches their eye.

            2) The "Sharing" advocates are full of shit when they claim it dosen't cost the content providers anything because some of the people downloading material are doing it to avoid paying for something they would have bought if they couldn't get it for free.

            3) Nobody knows if additional sales generated by someone "sampling" music outweighs sales lost to people who refuse to buy anything.

            4) Copyright holders ARE the only people with the LEGAL right to distribute copyrighted material.

            5) Any sleezy action by the RIAA members is beside the point. Didn't your Mother teach you that two wrongs don't make a right? Illegally distributing copyrighted materials makes it damn hard to take the moral highground.

            • by dbrutus (71639)
              At point 4, you could stand to go to the bathroom yourself. What gives people the right to use the state to stop other people from copying their works? The US Constitution does for the specific purpose of 'advancing the arts and sciences'. The only reason that the *temporary* monopoly exists is in order to advance the pool of knowledge and the pool of arts available to our society.

              It's certainly a legitimate question whether the RIAA/MPAA actions against fair use/unsanctioned copying are advancing or hindering the arts. Are their enforcement mechanisms raising costs so much that artists are actually being paid less? There's a study that isn't going to have industry sponsorship anytime soon.

              I would say that the original subject of the thread (Roxio crippling their burner program) hinders the arts and sciences by crippling the ability to copy music files whether or not such copying is legitimate (the program can't tell the difference). To the extent that Roxio is doing so under legal pressure from the RIAA, such pressure is constitutionally suspect.
              • by thales (32660)
                I Have never been an advocate of the "elastic" Constitution. I feel that we should follow the intents of the framers of the Constitution or follow the procedures for amending it. An "elastic" constitution in effect means it can be "amended" at will by changing the interpation.

                The clause you mentioned clearly sets a basis for reasonable limited copyright laws. I Don't consider life plus 95 years to be remotly reasonable, and would be delighted to see the copyright extensions struck down as unconstituional.

                A Reasonable law, IMHO, would be 14 years of automatic protection, with the possibility of a one time 14 year extension apon registering the copyright. These are the times that were discussed by the framers of the Constitution, and the original copyright law. After a max of 28 years it enters the public domain.

                Disagrement with a law does NOT give you the right to engage in wholesale violation of that law. If someone wanted to violate the present copyright law for the purpose of bringing a test case before the courts, I would be in full agreement with them.

                However that is NOT the reason the majority of the filesharers are violating the law. They don't agree with the law and simply refuse to obey it. This blatant disrepect for the law is far more likely to result in more severe laws than to result in an improvement in the law, as many recent examples of "Anti-piracy" laws show. It makes it hard to establish the moral highground when the RIAA can paint you as a scoffatlaw at best and a thief at worse.

                Mass distrubation of a song that was written last year would be illegal if the original copyright laws were still in effect. That would hardly make a good test case against the many extensions of the term of copyright. A test case would involve a song that was published over 28 years ago, something that would now be in the public domain under the original law.

                  • by thales (32660)
                    " But perhaps you feel that the founding fathers were authoritarian sons of bitches who didn't want you to think for yourself. Or do you?"

                    What part of "or follow the procedures for amending it" is too complicated for you to understand? Or do you prefer a non-constitution that lacks any meaning?

                    " I disagree. A (really) wrong law should not be followed. I'm glad that some jews were kept in hiding and thus escaped the gas chambers during WWII. Do you consider the people who disobeyed the law to help these people to be criminals? Or are they heroes?"

                    Are you trying to compare risking your life to save the life of another human being to demanding that ENTERTAINMENT be provided to you on your terms regardless of the wishes of the people who created the entertainment?

                    "Many people I know would gladly pay for fair-priced, full-featured MP3-downloading service or for fair-priced CD's. I don't feel bad at all about keeping the money away from these government-sponsored criminals (RIAA). And many decent people feel the same. They would gladly give money to those who deserve it (the artists), but don't accept being ripped off."

                    Criminals? And you are going to be the vigilante that decides the RIAA are criminals, and that your kangaroo court entitles you to violate the law? Music is a LUXARY. You aren't going to die from music hunger if you do a legal protest like boycotting CDs sold by RIAA members. Don't bother trying to take the moral highground, you lost that when you violated the law over the price of entertainment. Two wrongs don't make a right.

                    "Copying software illegally is different however, although I believe it's OK for foreigners, students and others who simply cannot afford the price that companies ask (and thus cannot learn or advance their society). Of course it is different when these groups get cheap deals."

                    I Want a restored 427 Cobra but can't afford it. Does that make it OK for me to take one? Hell No. So I make do with a Chevy. Ever hear of free software? Can't afford Windows XP? Get Linux. Can't afford MS Office? Then Get Open Office. Can't afford Photo Shop? Then learn to use the Gimp.

                    "Of course, the US is not exactly a fast learner with the war on drugs either. But copyright infringement can only be stopped with fascist laws. I don't expect the american public to accept these. Although you'll probably accept every law, which begs this quote:"

                    I Read that before most people on this forum were born, read it when I was speaking out against segration in the southeastern USA at a time when you could get your ass kicked or lynched for doing so. So forget the vain attempt to prove yourself "morally superior" to me. I wasn't afraid to speak out for the people who were having their rights violated back then, and I'm not afraid to speak out for the people who's rights you want to violate with your cockamamie "IP can be taken from those I don't approve of" campaign. I don't limit myself to only speaking out for the rights of groups that are considered "correct" by the left or the right.

                    "Perhaps I should impress them by buying all their crappy, overpriced CD's. I'll bet the bastards will be thinking about changing their ways when they sniff the line of coke that my money paid for in their favorite brothel. Having all the money in the world will worry them!"

                    Don't buy the damn CDs if you disaprove of them. Just don't bitch when they write you off as a deadbeat that's too cheap to pay for entertainment because you lacked the conviction to NOT use the product instead of trying to grab it without paying for it. Boycott the Music and you send a message of Moral outrage. Steal the music and you lose the moral standing you claim you want.

      • It does rock, but you need a x86 based processor and Windows. The poster was making a point about MacOS, which runs on a PPC processor. This minimum system requirements for Nero read:

        Pentium 90, 16 MB RAM
        12 MB free hard disk space
        CD-R, or CD-RW, DVD-R/RW or DVD+RW drive*
        Windows 95 / 98 / ME / NT 4.0 / 2000 / XP

        • A smart thing to do would be to run Virtual PC. I have an OSX native copy (version 5.x) with Windows 2000 (as well as various flavors of Linux, not important here) and it is perfectly capable of emulating something with as low requirements as Nero quite well. As a general rule, I find that the emulation environment runs around half the speed of the processor as an equivalent P3, so an 800Mhz G4 would be a ~400 P3, give or take. If you have a duel machine this will be slightly higher, but the bigger advantage is devoting a processor to VPC and then being able to do a lot of other stuff.

          Oh yeah, and along with Nero I would recommend people find a copy of VirtualDub. Fantastic program, PC only I think, but can convert between a LOT of different video formats quite well. Get the latest version here [virtualdub.org], but it also may be worth finding an old version around somewhere, 1.3 or something, because it can also convert ASF files to things like AVI/MPEG! Unfortunetly Microsoft strongarmed him to take out the feature, and I don't know if he has been able to put it back yet. Oh, and something many people here will appreciate, it is now GPLed!

    • Whaaa? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by overunderunderdone (521462) on Friday July 12 2002, @08:48AM (#3870395)
      I'm sorry but what did this post have to do with the story? Roxio is not Apple and Apple hasn't crippled their CD burning in iTunes or the Finder the way Roxio has with Toast.

      The BSD people where so desperate for someone to use their os that they didn't realize this is just another corporate exploitation...

      I don't know that "desperation" was part of it. That is the whole POINT of the BSD license (well at least part of the point). They WANT their software used as widely as possible, even by money grubbing corporations.

      What exactly is wrong with being a money grubbing corporation anyway? How exactly do you feed and clothe yourself? Subsistance farming? Even if you are working for a non-profit, the government or a university where do you think the money people donate came from? Sure "money grubbing" can be taken to obnoxious and even evil extremes but "money grubbing" seems to be a necessary and in itself morally neutral activity.

      I would have thought slashdot people would at least be able to see through apples marketing hype but i guess not.

      I think we can. At best the marketing hype gives some indication as to HOW a company may try to "grub for money" and they will abandon "enlightened" money grubbing methods if they fail to grub enough money. I'd even argue that they have a higher moral obligation to do so than to make you happy with their enlightened policy. They are responsible to pay their employees paychecks & benefits and still have enough left over to fund the retirements of many thousands of people who bought the stock in their IRA or own it through their employee pension fund. If you like their product enough to give them your money then you have nothing to complain about. If you don't like their product enough to give them money in return for it (or if you ARE a subsistance farmer to barter a few chickens & a cow) then they will change it so that you DO like it - because they are money grubbing and it's your money (or chickens) they want to grub.