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Wilfredo Sanchez Leaves Apple

Posted by AilleCat on Mon Feb 12, 2001 09:02 PM
from the darwinism-at-its-best dept.
Businesses Operating Systems Apple BSD
An unnamed correspondent writes: "At least, that's the rumor on the street. Wonder what this will mean for Apple's Darwin project?" The rumor is confirmed, boys and girls, Wilfredo Sanchez has indeed left Apple. A statement is on his Advogato page; apparently he has gone to KnowNow. Sanchez says on that page too that he'll still be involved with Darwin maintaining Apache and Perl for that platform.
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Wilfredo Sanchez leaves Apple. 50 Comments More /

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  • Re:Sure enough (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Two bucks he gets moderated down. *snickers*

  • Re:ummm.... (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    >Amelio screwed up, but he also cut the crap out of Apple and basically did all the dirty work
    I was an engineer at Apple (yeah, IL5, 4th floor) at this time and I can tell you what you have written is complete and utter BULLSHIT. Sorry, you're not allowed to argue after spewing this billious crap, just apologize. And think before you post on a subject about which you are completely ignorant.
    TIA!

  • Re:Sure enough (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    The politics issue at Apple all boils down to this jackass [apple.com]. The NeXT takeover (and yes, it was NeXT that effectively, de-facto took over Apple, not the other way around) created a huge culture clash between the Apple people and the NeXT people. It probably would have all settled down by now if it weren't for Avie. He just won't budge on anything. Any software features that weren't invented at NeXT are considered "bad", and he doesn't want it in the system unless developers and/or customers beg and plead with Apple to keep them, and even then they are only kept in a half-assed way. Design guidlines/conventions that Apple has followed for years are routinely flaunted, apparently for no other reason than to avoid doing things the Apple way, since again, that is considered "bad". Avie never listens to anybody, never even attempts to understand what customers and developers want, and is a thoroughly arrogant jerk. If it weren't for him, things would be running a lot more smoothly at Apple.
  • So-- "Enabling the 2-way web." Why does the web site have only 2 pages?

    I'm hoping Know-Now is going to make good use of him.
  • Interesting that this post got mod'd up to 5 when it is blatantly off-topic.
  • What does KnowNow do?
  • Pursuing a doctorate degree at UC, Irvine.

    http://www.ics.uci.edu/~rohit/

    /mill
  • There has always been this internal conflict in the Darwin message. Apple told us it could do an Open Source OS, and reserve a proprietary GUI which runs atop it. They (Wilfredo) even said the OS would run on x86. That might make sense in the abstract, but in practical terms it quickly runs into trouble. If I build Darwin source and start it running ... what GUI can I put on top? On some models of Macs I might be able to shift the Mac OS X GUI on top of my Darwin, but that certainly wouldn't be possible on x86. On x86 the obvious choice is X/Windows, which leads to Gnome or KDE ... and suddenly Apple is supporting an OS that supports a competing (and Open) GUI framework. Something had to give ...
  • One goes one way. The second, the other.
  • Wait ... you used to work for Apple??
  • Actually, it's not really the core of Mac OS X. It's a parallel project to the Mac OS X kernel. Every now and then, Apple releases a new version of Darwin. Also, outside groups are allowed to modify Darwin and make changes, as long as they give those changes back to Apple. So Apple can integrate the changes it wants into the Mac OS X kernel. Apple is of course, allowed to make changes to their official kernel and not release those changes to the public if they don't choose to.
    This used to be the case, but is no longer since the APSL [apple.com] was updated to 1.2. Now, if someone desires to change Darwin and not share the modifications with the world or Apple, they are free to do so. In addition, while the full release is only periodically synchronized, you can get the latest version from Apple's CVS repository (Projects list here [apple.com]). Latest version, I believe, means live version that Apple engineers are working with and have checked in.

    Not that this is really all that bad. I can see something happening where Apple needs to integrate some secret code into the OS X kernel that they can't release into Darwin. It will enable some feature that everyone will want or some people in the industry will demand (e.g., a digital rights management module that can't be tampered with). Of course, anyone who's running the Darwin open-source kernel will be out of luck.
    Except the Darwin Kernel/foundation/layer IS underneath Mac OS X. Period, end of statement, no "Apple could do this". Unless Apple divorces Darwin from Mac OS X, which would have to be a public, deliberate act (and many would not put it past them), it will always be the case that, to update any package or component of Mac OS X that exists at the Darwin/BSD level, one only has to recompile the code from the CVS repository.

    It could change, but with the APSL changing towards being less encumbering rather than more encumbring, with more projects added to Darwin, and with all the publicity so far, I find it hard to believe that it would change in the near future.

    Russell Ahrens

  • Nothing Apple produces deserves to fall under the 'BSD' category.

    Especially since this isn't even really *about* MOSX. Whatever.

    Why doesn't /. have a "Free Software Personality" category? That way, when Alan Cox drinks a glass of orange juice in the morning, we'll have an appropriate topic to place the story under.

  • "And you worked at LinuxCare?"

    C'mon Tom, you worked there with me and your login is "AIXadmin." Gimme a break. Last I heard you were at Apple.

    Besides, you knew at the time that I *preferred* MacOS X Server - I just realized it was only a pragmatic choice for one hardware platform.

    I still love Linux, work with it every day. But it doesn't have the warm fuzzy appeal that MacOS X has -- and I doubt it ever will.

    _Deirdre

  • Yea, I have AIXamin because I have absolutley no originallity. Plus, 8 years ago I started off on AIX 3.x. So I suppose I am being nostalgic. How is Rick? You and Rick, were always much more pragmatic abou the whole licensing issue , and OS perspective then , the red headed guy whose name just had a senior moment in my head. Oh well. I don't think you will be disapointed with OS X. How is BE?
    Cheers,
    Tomas
    ===========
  • Fred, A slashdot post? You left on ... and they are just NOW figuring it out. Oh wait I can't say that. Shit, I work for... Oh yea the rumor is Fred... Wow, does this mean Fred has Allan Cox, Linus, Eric Raymond, Jordan Hubbard status? Does this mean Fred will go for Advogato grand-master from master. This means I have to go bitch directly Matt instead of you!
    Cheers,
    Tomas
    ===========
  • _Deirde, And you worked at LinuxCare? Is this sacrilgous! Wait I did too. I am using the latest build. And it has .. and ... and oh yea ... Are you and Rick now newlyweds? Way to make such a strong statement about switching on such a pro-linux forum. I will still keep Linuxppc on my other partition. But, I will not use it nearly as much.
    Cheers,
    Tomas
    ===========
  • You are misinformed. OS X doesn't require 3 letter extenions.
    Cheers,
    Tomas
    ===========
  • Wow! I can't wait for the 2-way web to be enabled. The current uni-directional communication standards are hopelessly obsolete.
  • Yeah, he was at Apachecon in London, he had to leave BSDcon early to get there ;-) As one of the active contributers on the Darwin project I have to say it is ashame to see him leave Apple, but if he is doing something he wants to be doing then I am happy for him.

    Louis
  • the 20 goatse.xc references

  • His presence at Apple will be missed. Goodbye, and farewell "Chez"
  • Is this the first time a first post got a +5, or what?
  • HTML Comment at knownow.com:

    <!--
    ha!
    -->

    Like Transmeta pre-2000, but not as fun :)


    -----
  • You forgot my "I love Katy"! We simple can NOT overlook my lovely Katy! :-)
  • great (new?) resume objective -- a desire to
    partake of "a scenario where politics doesn't
    get in the way of getting Real Work done", from:

    http://www.mit.edu/people/wsanchez/resume/

    was this goal added post-apple but pre-knownow?
  • From: Wilfredo Sanchez
    Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 11:55:52 PM US/Eastern
    To: Darwin Development
    Subject: In case you haven't heard

    You may have noticed that my email now tends to come from MIT instead of Apple.

    I no longer work at Apple. I now work for a company called KnowNow. My last day at Apple was Friday 2/2.

    You may also have noticed that I've since then helped Chuck import cscope, fixed a nasty in mod_perl, fixed up libtool some because I'm porting (Apache) APRlib to Darwin and tweak flex to install libfl.a as a link to libl.a. You might therefore come to the conclusion that my involvement with Darwin is not exactly over, and you would be correct.

    For what it's worth, I've left those things I can no longer reach in good and capable hands; I couldn't have left them otherwise. As the one guy on "Dark Angel" says: "It's all good, all the time."

    Pleasant hacking,
    -Fred

    Wilfredo Sanchez - wsanchez@mit.edu
    _______________________________________________
    darwin-development mailing list
    darwin-development@lists.apple.com
    http://www.lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/darw in -development

    ROCK ON FRED!

  • Re:Sure enough (Score:2)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Wilfredo,

    what a horrible breach of protocol. And with a sub-100000 user number, you should know better. Appropriate first post comments would be:

    • frist post bzatches
    • wh00t
    • french toast
    • bouillabaisse
    • fp
    • who da man
    • 1 0wn j00
    • etc

    best of luck.

  • Re:Sure enough (Score:2)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Well considering that Apple spent 10 years with both thumbs it's ass when it was supposed to be building a modern operating system, I can believe they would resent the man brought in to make sure they do their job this time.

    Apple had some great UI people, but the ideology there was that the 1984 Way was the best Way, but sometimes to get a new shiny thing on the shelf that people will migrate to (not "upgrade to"), you have to break some eggs.

    The irony of your flame is that most of the UI bitching I've seen is from the NeXT crowd, not the Mac users. (The biggest Mac user bitch seems to be the lack of a Control Strip, and that could be emulated with the Dock without much effort.)
  • I believe the expression is "w00t!"
    --
  • why keep Darwin around after it served it's purpose?

    Duh! You dont know what you're talking about.

    Darwin is the core of Mac OS X. It has not yet served it's purpose. I'ts futur is to start on march 24th.

    Inform yourself, THEN criticize.

    Karma karma karma karma karmeleon: it comes and goes, it comes and goes.
  • Actually, one programmer can make all the difference. Studies have shown [ucdavis.edu] that some star programmers are ten times as productive as other programmers.

  • i tried the Public Beta when it came out, and it was alright. i have a G3/350 at home, and it was pretty sluggish, especially with classic. i think i used the Public Beta for all of about four days before i gave up on it.

    i got really curious recently however, and "procured" a copy of a more recent beta, build 4k33. the difference is like night and day: it now runs very efficiently on my G3, classic actually works like a charm, and despite a few little bugs here and there i've had absolutely no problems with it. about 90% of my issues with the interface have been fixed, and i've been using it as my primary OS for a few weeks now.

    i've tried a lot of operating systems at the beta level over the years, but OS X is by far the most solid of any supposedly "beta" release i've ever seen; i think Apple finally got it right. OS X is well on its way to being the best operating system i've ever used.

    - j

  • Huh? If they'd only show pix of Britney with an iBook, it would be the perfect computing magazine!

    ;-)

  • My sincerest apologies. I will try to do better next time.
  • Post-Disney and pre-Apple.
  • Actually, I was a Mac user from 1994-2000 to be exact. (My iMac's analog video card burned out like so many others and I'm now Mac-less and not going back).

    Amelio screwed up, but he also cut the crap out of Apple and basically did all the dirty work, and then, before he had a chance to actually move the company forward, Steve had him kicked out. Jobs came back and "saved" the company. If Amelio hadn't done what he had done there wouldn't of been an Apple for Steve to come back to, or there wouldn't have been one for very long after his return.
  • Recall when Steve left Apple, it was not the end of the world for Apple and they did well for their core audience.

    Apple actually did a hell of a lot better after he wasn't there to screw things up anymore.
  • Look, I know from following the Darwin lists that Wilfredo Sanchez is a huge contributor but -- front page Slashdot news? The Mac sites aren't making such a big deal about this. It's not like Steve Jobs or Avie Tevanian is leaving.

    The story doesn't matter much to Mac users, because Darwin is a "fringe" product from their perspective. One Darwin engineer leaving Apple's payroll does not impact the future of OS X very much.

    The story is of interest to the Linux-ish crowd because Darwin is YAFUC (Yet Another Free Unix Clone). Once OS X ships, it will probably become the most-used BSD-based OS in the world within a matter of months, and since Darwin is a Free-Beer-Free-Speech spin-off built with the same kernel, a lot of BSD hackers are going to be interested in it.

  • If I ever saw BSD running on a fruity translucent box, I'd run like hell too. And if I had a gun, I'd empty the clip shooting at the damned thing!
  • One developer leaving would not affect the continuity of an entire Operating System as it is often a team of developers who create it and not a sole entity. Recall when Steve left Apple [apple.com], it was not the end of the world for Apple and they did well for their core audience.

    Developers who leave may hinder a faster progress date but they would not jeapordize a project. Think about it you have a team of developers who work on a project and any company who would be moronic enough to have a sole person in charge of the whole thing would be ludicrous. People come and go daily in Sillycone Valley, yet you don't see companies falling as fast.

  • I CAN SEE THE FUTURE. (Score:3)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 12 2001, @04:21PM (#436382)
    With my mighty psychic powers and common sense, i can tell what this Slashdot thread will look like in 24 hours:
    • There will be between 110 and 160 comments, no more than 106 of which will have score:1 or higher.
    • At least 30 posts will be gibberish.
    • At least 40 posts will viciously attack apple in a completely unreasonable manner.
    • At least 20 posts will viciously attack apple for things that it is quite reasonable to attack them for, but which have little or nothing to do with Wilfredo Sanchez leaving apple.
    • At least 10 posts will contain bizarre vicious attacks on BSD from people who, upon examination, appear to be slightly unclear on what exactly BSD is.
    • No more than fourteen posts will actually be informed.
    • There will be between 10 and 30 posts which are well-thought-out and in general worth reading, but not particularly helpful or directly relevant.
    • No more than six posts will have anything directly to do with Wilfredo Sanchez.
    • There will be at least one utterance of the words "I will no longer be doing with apple computer" from an individual who has never owned an apple product in their life.

  • Awesome buzzword desnity (Score:3)

    by warmcat (3545) on Tuesday February 13 2001, @12:48AM (#436383)
    ''Our Zero-Install JavaScript microserver transforms static Web pages into Dynamic HTML user interfaces by wiring them into a peer-to-peer XML message bus. By sidestepping the cost and incompatibilities of Java or ActiveX applets, ESP app developers can immediately leverage the massive installed base of 4th-generation Web browsers. Furthermore, choosing to route across the KNN can leverage our pre-provisioned real-time content, security, peering with wireless carriers, and personalized prioritization engine to deliver the right information, at the right time, on the right device, to the right people & programs.''

    Good job they went stealth, buzzwords this dense could easily have ripped space-time.

  • Re:Is OS X taking off? (Score:3)

    by deeny (10239) on Monday February 12 2001, @05:36PM (#436384) Homepage
    As Jobs said in his MacWorldExpo keynote, they expected to sell 10k of the MacOS X Public Beta and they sold 100k. The release won't ship until 3/24, but it is really solid.

    I've had two issues with it:

    1) Connecting from an old Mac to the X box using FileSharing over TCP/IP caused the Mach kernel's AFP layer to harf. To get the service going again, I had to restart (kernel services being a bummer that way). This was a known limitation; I just didn't know it.

    2) There was some issue where it wouldn't create additional terminal windows and, when pushed, it eventually wound up with a kernel panic. I sent in the backtrace. This was apparently also a known problem with some kind of memory leak.

    Minor stuff really, not problems I'd have in everyday use.

    But for using, hard, a beta OS for a couple months, not a bad track record. It will replace Linux as my home desktop OS (already has for the most part); it has more creature comforts to offer and, with open source under the hood, little of the prior MacOS's disadvantages.

    _Deirdre

  • Re:Calm down, guys! (Score:3)

    by update() (217397) on Monday February 12 2001, @07:47PM (#436385) Homepage
    ...and by the way, I always have to laugh at Linux maniacs who have the attitude that they're the hyperrational ubergeeks while the rest of the world chooses their technology according to marketing, eyecandy or some other "Joe Sixpack" criterion. Meanwhile, their primary concerns are 1) translucent shading and 2) which free software celebrity is putting his name on it.

    Advocates of Freehand and Illustrator have some nasty flame wars, but you don't see them dropping developers' names like fashion slaves talking about designers.

  • Alfredo's post to the darwin dev list (Score:4)

    by empath (44572) on Monday February 12 2001, @07:16PM (#436386) Homepage
    To: Darwin Development
    Subject: In case you haven't heard

    You may have noticed that my email now tends to come from MIT instead of Apple.

    I no longer work at Apple. I now work for a company called KnowNow.
    My last day at Apple was Friday 2/2.

    You may also have noticed that I've since then helped Chuck import cscope, fixed a nasty in mod_perl, fixed up libtool some because I'm porting (Apache) APRlib to Darwin and tweak flex to install libfl.a as a link to libl.a. You might therefore come to the conclusion that my involvement with Darwin is not exactly over, and you would be correct.

    For what it's worth, I've left those things I can no longer reach in good and capable hands; I couldn't have left them otherwise. As the one guy on "Dark Angel" says: "It's all good, all the time."

    Pleasant hacking,
    -Fred

    Wilfredo Sanchez - wsanchez@mit.edu

  • Information about KnowNow (Score:4)

    by Ryu2 (89645) on Monday February 12 2001, @04:23PM (#436387) Homepage Journal
    Their actual page [knownow.com] seems to be like that of Transmeta pre-2000... but the Google cache works wonders. [google.com]

  • Sure enough (Score:4)

    by wsanchez (98558) on Monday February 12 2001, @03:42PM (#436388) Homepage
    Yep.

  • Waitaminute (Score:5)

    by firewort (180062) on Monday February 12 2001, @04:14PM (#436389)
    Wilfredo Sanchez still has commit access on FreeBSD and Darwin, so even if he's gone to work for someone else, he still has the power to effect the code of major projects.

    Provided that FreeBSD remains as popular in the server market, and provided that Apple continues to integrate improvments in Darwin into their commercial release of OsX, then I expect we'll be seeing more work from Wilfredo Sanchez in the products we use.

    No cause for alarm.

    A host is a host from coast to coast, but no one uses a host that's close

  • Calm down, guys! (Score:5)

    by update() (217397) on Monday February 12 2001, @04:54PM (#436390) Homepage
    Look, I know from following the Darwin lists that Wilfredo Sanchez is a huge contributor but -- front page Slashdot news? The Mac sites aren't making such a big deal about this. It's not like Steve Jobs or Avie Tevanian is leaving.

    The free software world has this habit of latching on to whichever developer brings himself to their attention. Just try to explain to people that Jamie Zawinski didn't singlehandedly write Navigator or that Jason Haas isn't doing PowerPC Linux entirely on his own.

    Again, no disrespect to Wilfredo (or JWZ or Jason, for that matter). I know he was extremely important in OS X development. But this sort of "Stop the presses! RASTER QUIT HIS JOB AT RED HAT!" mentality strikes me as more appropriate for Tiger Beat.

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