Environmental DVD Wrecks Apple Drives

FST777 writes "The British Mail on Sunday published its latest DVD giveaway on the EcoDisc, a thin and bendable DVD format that is supposed to be more environmentally-friendly than regular DVDs. Despite the clear warning against using them in Apple slot drives, some Mac users decided to give it a go. The result? A brisk trade for repair shops in the UK. 'The EcoDisc's manufacturer, ODS, insists the disc won't break drives. "We've produced over ten million of these discs — we've had less than a dozen phone calls," says managing director, Ray Wheeler. "There are ways to get the discs out." Wheeler says the problem stems from Apple's slot-loading drives. "It uses an ejection system that doesn't get approval from the DVD Forum." He claims the EcoDisc should work in other types of slot-loading drive, although admits that it hasn't been tested in the PlayStation 3.'"

Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

Just throw the whole computer out and buy a new one!

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

Simple Fixes for Simple People.

Who takes an unknown disc that they find in a newspaper and sticks it into their machine without so much as reading the cover? It says right on the thing, don't use it in a Mac. Then they want to complain?

Bunch of Flakes.

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

I don't know if you have noticed or not, but many CDs that are distributed today do not contain the "Compact Disk" logo. Back when DRM started, manufacturers started putting blank sectors and other stuff to try to thwart copying. Poeople started complaining about this as those disks no longer conformed to the "Compact Disk" Specification.

The companies that were producing these disks just dropped the logo, going under the assumtion that if is was the same size as a CD and had a shiny bottom, that people would put it in thier CD players, and people did just that.

To most people a CD is defined as "something that is about 5 inches across and has a shiny bottom. If I put it in my computer something happens."

They didn't just drop the logo...

The companies that were producing these disks just dropped the logo...

They didn't, not until they were hit by class-action lawsuits and Philips reminded them that using the Compact Disc logo without permission (e.g. conforming to the Red Book standard) constituted to Trademark infringement and they were prepared to sue.

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

Does you mom know about that Sony rootkit? How about your sister? Just because everyone on /. knows about does not mean that it is common knowledge.

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

Does you mom know about that Sony rootkit? How about your sister?

She doesn't know it was a rootkit, but she knows there was something about music cds you buy from the store putting a virus on your computer, because it was in newspapers and on television around the world.

Give it a rest with the attempted justifications. The disc was specifically labeled. It didn't even say "Not suitable for PCs", which might confuse Mac users who think their machines are made of Steve Job's semen imbued with life by God above. It specifically said "Don't put this in your fucking Mac" and it had a picture because Mac users can't understand things that don't have pictures.

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

As a matter of fact, that pretty much is the definition of a Compact Disc(c). Compact Disk does include such things as discs with SecuROM and other DRM. But for the most part the standard is only what the disc is physically, not what's on it. The main reason people stopped with the Compact Disc(c) logo, is they had to shovel off a couple pennies to Sony each time they printed it, and that wasn't worth it.

Compact Discs have to adhere to a standard that allows them to be read with standard equipment, otherwise, I could take this record and trim it with scissors and call it a compact disc. DRM is not a part of the compact disc standard, therefore, if some circular disc of metal and plastic has DRM, it's not a compact disc, and won't work like a compact disc, and isn't permitted to be sold as a compact disc.

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

Who takes an unknown disc that they find in a newspaper and sticks it into their machine without so much as reading the cover? It says right on the thing, don't use it in a Mac. Then they want to complain?

You're right. Someone saw something that looked like a DVD, and treated it like a DVD. The fools. (The warning on the disc was, apparently, the entirely clear and obvious phrase "NO APPLE SLOT IN DRIVE" in the bottom corner of the label. You did look at the article, right?)

Tomorrow I'm going to leave a platter of poisoned brownies in the lunchroom at work, along with a big sign saying "BROWNIES". It's all on the up-and-up as long as I leave a "NO MOUTH FOOD" label in the bottom corner of the sign, right? I can't wait to see how many suckers I can catch. Ha ha!

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

Wheeler says the problem stems from Apple's slot-loading drives. "It uses an ejection system that doesn't get approval from the DVD Forum."

This is exactly why I have never bought an apple product (was given my iPod). They don't abide by standards. They are just like Microsoft in that sense except with a cult following.

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

Why did you feel the need to qualify your ownership of an iPod, when you posted as an anonymous coward anyway?

Maybe because he's just telling the truth. Frankly, if I were criticizing Apple, no matter how legitimate the complaint is, I'd post anonymously too. Case in point: The guy says Apple doesn't abide by standards, your reply is an unrelated nitpick about his post.

I'll bet his post has a -1 by the end of the day.

Re:something stinks.

if I were criticizing Apple, no matter how legitimate the complaint is, I'd post anonymously too

wow, you criticized apple fanboys with a side swipe at apple. And didn't click the no Karma, or Anonymous check box?

a.) I didn't side-swipe Apple. I'm not sure why you're seeing that. The "He's telling the truth" bit is a reference to his ownership of an iPod, not to his critcism.

b.) This is basically a throw-away account. I've been lurking on Slashdot for far longer than my ID implies. One day there was a story about another company complaining about iTune's monopoly. Everybody poo-poo'd that complaint, so I mentioned that he had a point and why I thought so. (As opposed to saying something like "APPLE SUX!! EVERYBODY WHO LIKES APPLE SUCKS!") My comment was initially modded insightful. Unfortunately, that invited criticism. Instead of taking my point head-on, lots of people took jabs at my post. One guy shot up to a +5 for cooking up a hypothetical (and, if anybody spent more than 3 seconds pondering it, non-sensical) scenario about my motivations for making the comment. Silly stuff, but not really out of the norm for Slashdot. The silliness shot to an extreme when all of my recent posts started dropping. Before long, some 30 negative moderations had been made, actually causing me to get banned from Slashdot for a couple of months. (It was specific to an IP range, I could still post from home.) A couple of months later, I started posting again, and those new posts were automatically modded as troll.

So I created this account to avoid that BS attached by my old nick. Frankly, if this one gets toasted by ridiculously organized Apple fanboys too, I really don't care. I can create a new account. BFD. I'm not giving Steve Jobs verbal fellatio just to be cool with a group of people. I'm also not giving Apple any more credit than I'd give Microsoft. They're motivated by profit just like BillyG, so I'm not defending them just because I like my iPod.

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

Way to not even read the summary, which stated that those kind of slot loaders can be built to conform to the standards, but that Apple didn't do it.

Re:Luckily for Apple Users there is a simple fix

The MacBook Pro uses a Matsushita UJ-857E DVD-RW drive. This is basically the UJ-85JE (Matsushita is Panasonic). This drive is used in a number of applications.

Floppy DVDs don't go in slot-loading drives. Apple is the highest-profile user of such drives. It's just doublespeak to claim that it's "Apple" slot-load drives that are affected. A quick search shows only 230 results for '"dvd forum" +ejection system'--the top results, of course, referring to this article, and the others referring to the emergency eject function (i.e. the paperclip hole). That is the "DVD Forum approved ejection system" and it is fundamentally incompatible with a slot drive--there's no tray to pull out manually even if it had such a trigger. Further, Matsushita is one of the four largest members of the DVD Forum.

Apple neither designed, engineered, nor manufactured the device, so while it's true Apple didn't build a device to comply with "standards", it's a tautology. There is no possible way for the statement to be UNtrue. The only way to have a "DVD Forum approved" ejection system is to have a tray drive.

Way to take the bait hook, line, and sinker, though.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

Seriously, even Apple users I know rant about their slot loading Macs (you can pry my tray loading Imac G3 from my cold, dead fingers). Both ideas were stupid.

Actually, the Apple slot-loading drive was a response to durability problems experienced by students when they used Mac laptops. Apparently kids were liable to snap the DVD tray right off the laptop. (Not good.) So it wasn't a stupid idea. More like an attempt to balance out a variety of needs.

That being said, you could always get a MacBook Air. Nothing says "high technology" like a complete lack of an optical drive. ;-)

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

That being said, you could always get a MacBook Air. Nothing says "high technology" like a complete lack of an optical drive. ;-)

That being said, you could always get an iMac. Nothing says "high technology" like a complete lack of a floppy drive.

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

Indeed. Remind me, what was the point of that?

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

I'm fairly certain your parent post was pointing out how people bitched up a fit about the iMac not having that piece of junk back in 1998, not when the major PC builders finally dropped them from their standard configuration within the last 2 years.

Of course, back then the complaint was perfectly valid because Apple didn't replace it with anything.

Had the iMac shipped with a CDRW drive, they would have actually been "innovative", rather than "cheap".

Optical drives in laptops

That being said, you could always get a MacBook Air. Nothing says "high technology" like a complete lack of an optical drive. ;-)

Offtopic, but I know a lot of people like to beat up on Apple for the "no internal optical drive on the MacBook Air" thing. I have a Dell D420, which doesn't have a built-in optical drive (it's in the dock) and I can't say I ever use the optical drive un

Re:

That's a problem for elementary schools, not colleges.

Well, it's a problem for high schools too, but that's because it's school computers and HS students tend to be dicks when it comes to other people's property. That issue applies to both slot- and tray-

"I've heard the opposite..."

"I've heard the opposite- that slot-load drives are bad for schools because kids like to stick things in them."

And I've heard that what they stick in the slots is pieces of the trays they snap off from other machines that have (had?) tray loading drives.

-- Terry

Re:

the drive still works, but only reading the outside half of a disc. So CD isos get burned to DVDs and I can read all of 'em

Actually, it's reading the inside half of the disks. CDs and DVDs play from the inside out. [howstuffworks.com] But hey, as long as it works, right?

Re:Nelson points and says "Haha!"

I particularly love the way that you can add files to projects by drag-and-drop! Oh, wait, no you can't, you have to add them with an "Add file" dialog.
  - Opens up the 'src' folder in the Finder
  - Selects a file
  - Drags it to the 'Sources' folder in the XCode project
  - Sees import-folder-to-project sheet drop down
  - Wonders what the fuss is about

But at least you can add a whole bunch at once! Oh, wait, no you can't, you can only add one at a time
  - Does same as above, but selects multiple files
  - Wonders what the fuss is all about
  - Tries using the dialogue box, in case Apple had gone insane... Nope, multi-select works just fine...

But at least the dialog box remembers where the files were so you don't have to navigate your directory structure again and again for every single file! Oh, wait, no it doesn't, it always goes right back to the project directory
  * This one I'll give you, but then I tend to keep my source files for a given project within the project folder anyway, so it works quite well for me...

the only way to change the build settings for your project is to right-click on the build target name and select the intuitively named "Get Info" option
  - Wonders why the coward just doesn't double-click the project...

Thinks to himself: "Perhaps reading the manual might be a useful exercise for this coward". Here's a hint: If you're doing something that you think is a monumental waste of time, something the computer could do far better, and make your life far easier, you're probably missing something. Reading the fine manual before blowing off steam in public saves making an ass of yourself.

Simon

pot, meet kettle

"It uses an ejection system that doesn't get approval from the DVD Forum."

And these new discs do?

Re:pot, meet kettle

Discs don't have ejection systems, so no.

Rob

Re:pot, meet kettle

A little more info from OSD's [ods.com] ecodisk PDF:

"Some Matshita Computer Slot-in drives (used in Apple computers) do not follow the DVD forum specifications (by omitting the guide shafts) and thus it might happen that the EcoDisc will not be ejected at first trial, or has to be removed manually"

Nothing in the document says that the disk meets any standard.
But it does state that "ODS has applied for 4 patents up to now" so it must be good(TM).

Problem Solved!

Apple has solved this problem by releasing the MacBook Air without a DVD drive built in- it's much easier to throw away and replace a USB accessory.

Idiot tax for jumpy Mail readers

On the plus side, this is a good form of idiot tax. This might not make sense to non-British readers but the Mail has, let's say, a certain reputation [wikipedia.org] in the UK for its readership being most of Britain's jumpy, middle class, alarmist, conservative, "immigration is evil and all non-white immigrants should be castrated" type readers.

Re:

the Mail has, let's say, a certain reputation in the UK for its readership being most of Britain's jumpy, middle class, alarmist, conservative, "immigration is evil and all non-white immigrants should be castrated" type readers.

Yeah, but it's good for a la

Who is out of specs again?

Wheeler says the problem stems from Apple's slot-loading drives. "It uses an ejection system that doesn't get approval from the DVD Forum."

So the drives are out of specs. Yet the DVD Forum's specs allow for thin and bendable discs? Doubt it.

Re:

I'm not sure I understand. "Our product X is designed to work with and has been confirmed to work with everything approved by universally-accepted standards body Y." This is an absolute defense, is it not? Whether X has been approved by the standards body

Re:Who is out of specs again?

I think it's more like this: Product A isn't compliant to standard X, but works with all products conforming to standard X. Product B also works with all products conforming to standard X, but is also noncompliant itself. And now it so happens that Product A and Product B don't work together, and the makers of Product B are blaming the makers of Product A.

No

They've specifically said they wouldn't support Apple's non compliant hardware, which Apple dishonestly marketed as compliant.

Yes

Calling them DVD drives certainly does that, and really, not coming clean with the fact that they're *not* is enough.

Re:

I'm not sure I understand. "Our product X is designed to work with and has been confirmed to work with everything approved by universally-accepted standards body Y." This is an absolute defense, is it not? Whether X has been approved by the standards body seems irrelevant to me -- non-complying product Z is out of spec, and must accept the slings and arrows of uncaring vendors as part of the bargain.

Let me ask you this: is the "X" in your hypothetical Apple's drive or the bendable CD? See the problem? When two "X" (non-complying products) interact, it doesn't always work. They can both claim "X" (we work with everything approved), but they are both r

environmental friendliness

The environmentally friendly thing to do would be to have NO disc at all. Just point people at a download site and let them get the disk image from the tubes using zero plastics, chemicals, landfill, or other resources in the process.

Re:environmental friendliness

Because the Internet doesn't use any electrical power?

I agree that it's probably more efficient to download data instead of burning it on DVD and distributing it that way, but by how much?

The Beta & The Omega

although admits that it hasn't been tested in the PlayStation 3

Well, yeah, that's understandable seeing as it's still so hard to get a hold of a PS3.

Doctor! Doctor!

Patient: Doctor, it hurts when I do this... Doctor: Don't do that.

Not a CLEAR warning!

The warning was:

"no Apple slot in drive"

Re:Not a CLEAR warning!

Clear the warning was...if yoda you were

Hello, standards

The question is whether either the disc or the drives carried the DVD Logo [dvdfllc.co.jp]? From what I have seen it's doubtful that the "EcoDisk" would qualify as it is less than half the thickness and weight of a real DVD, so it's interesting to see ODS trying to point fingers at Matshita for not following DVD Forum specifications [ods.com].

Wow. Space-time contiuum and stuff!

I think I've accidentally been transported into a parallel universe. Is this not Slashdot?

What, you say it is Slashdot? Then how do you explain this article without someone (incorrectly) referring to "bricking" the Apple CD drive?

This worked for me

A friend once put such a disk in his MacBook and then called me after he couldn't get it out. I tried several things, including opening the Mac, with no luck. After some searching I found a solution on the net: Reboot the MacBook holding it upside down... the disk properly ejected right on booting. I don't know why and I don't know if it's reproducable, as I didn't want to try to put it in again. (btw, reading the disc while it was in worked fine.)

Re:Now don't forget

We in the industry call that a "feature".

Re:

I believe he's referring to custom-sized CDs, the most common of which are the mini CD and the business card CD. It's a CD that has approximately the shape of a business card. The US Navy once sent me promotional materials on one. Other companies have been

Re:

So you're saying that inserting objects never meant for the drive is bad?
How do they handle hot soup?

Maybe he's referring to actual CD's shaped like business cards and hearts [proactionmedia.com]?

/how 'bout them apples?

Re:apple slot loader

/how 'bout them apples?

Haven't you been reading? They don't work in them apples either...

Re:Well...

Yes, non-Macintoshes have them, I suppose. But what about what happens when you put a regular bad CD into the drive? On a Mac, you can always eject the disk by going to the Disk Manager (whatever that thing is called). Unless, of course, the CD is bad, then the disk manager won't necessarily load. No problem, just hold down one of those funky keys while selecting "restart." That will work, provided the disk isn't bad.

Well, you can always boot the machine into console and issue a direct "eject disk" command.

But then, of course, you'd say it was the user's fault for not knowing the disk was bad before inserting it.

This will be fun: Non-standard DVD player and an unusual DVD. Does the DVD adhere to appropriate standards, in which case, we can all gloat that the stylish and disposable Mac du jour falls victim to its own preciousness, or is this a matter of shared liability?

Hold down the mouse button on boot to eject

It's really quite simple.

Amusingly, when I typed 'Hold' in the Subject field, Safari completed the sentence because I posted the same exact thing here a while back the last time this came up.

Re:Dear American Mac-haters, I have a correction..

You fail to mention that illegal immigrants killed Diana, presumably while stealing our jobs and living off benefits.