Apple Cuts Off Linux iPod Users 854
Will Fisher writes "New iPods will no longer be able to work with Linux. iTunes now writes some kind of hash (SHA1, md5?) to the iPod database which new iPods check against. If this check fails then the iPod reports that it contains 0 songs. This appears to be protection against 3rd party applications writing out their own databases. We haven't found out how to generate our own valid hashes (but we do know the hash includes the database itself, and possibly the iPod serial number), and are looking for help."
Have you tried Corned Beef? (Score:5, Funny)
Inevitable comment (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Inevitable comment (Score:5, Funny)
I don't know if I should smoke it or serve it up with eggs.
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GAIM^WPidgin developers? (Score:3, Informative)
Old ones (Score:4, Funny)
Not that I'd sell it.
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But but but... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:But but but... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:But but but... (Score:5, Insightful)
I know it is suggested that this is to thwart syncing with third-party apps, but it seems like that's a pointless effort. I have been known not to understand stuff, though.
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This might seem surprising, but really it isn't if you think about it a bit. The issue is Apple's market share and the recent sale of DRM-free tracks.
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Re:But but but... (Score:5, Insightful)
Anyway, this just makes it easier to say no to them IMO. I was already pissed off enough that my 2nd gen Nano couldn't load Rockbox, but now this.
In TFA they make it clear they are going to try to get around this, and they probably will, but part of me just wants to say why bother? Fuck Apple. They don't want my money, good, they won't get it.
Re:But but but... (Score:5, Insightful)
Granted, I see some advantages to the bigger iPods -- lots of storage is a good thing, and halfway decent battery life likewise. But the smaller ones? Just because it's branded "Apple"?
Re:But but but... (Score:5, Informative)
Usability and simplicity. I've had three other music players, some of them having received very good reviews (cowon products). But I used my wife's iPod, and it is simply a better, more user-friendly experience. I was disappointed to go back to my old player; and will very likely be replacing it with an ipod when it dies.
Itunes is another reason for the casual user. They don't care about formats. Most of them can't tell the difference in quality. They don't need to transfer it to a million different locations. They know they can hear a song they like, and own it, and enjoy it -- relatively cheaply, and without any headache or hassle. I'm not a fan of it for the reasons you mentioned, but the vast majority of the paying public doesn't really care about those issues. Most aren't even aware of them.
Re:But but but... (Score:5, Interesting)
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Itunes *maybe*. I personally hate it and won't use it, but I can see how it might lock in some users. Usability though? No.
Re:But but but... (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe (hopefully) things are different these days, but the last time I looked at mp3 players (a year or two ago), it was pretty obvious why the ipod was so popular: all the models from other companies were (1) really ugly, (2) kind of flimsy feeling (apple used aluminum, others used painted plastic, usually with tacky chrome-looking plastic accents), (3) had awful UIs (hard to press and badly placed buttons etc), and (this is the part that amazes me), (4) more expensive than the ipod for the same amount of storage.
It was really kind of surreal, like the other manufacturers were living in some sort of dreamland where they had no competition and people would buy any old junk they released as long as it had the string "mp3" in its name...
Re:But but but... (Score:5, Interesting)
While I can't argue that many people may have done that, I went from swimming upstream to something that was designed to work with what I had. I had a Rio Karma [wikipedia.org] from a few years back, specifically for the Ogg Vorbis support, but once I made the transition from Windows to Mac, I found that I was swimming upstream in my insistence on using this device. Still, I persisted until the hard drive died, and once the time came to buy another device - well, since I already had and really liked my iBook, I decided to go along with the design flow and picked up an iPod Nano. I wish I hadn't had to re-rip my collection, but I've been very happy with the aesthetics and the usability, given that I use a digital audio player specifically for working out, running/biking, or long drives.
A number of people will complain about iTunes and how it manages files and playlists - and I agree that it doesn't do things the way I want, the way I'd done them before. It is very easy to use, but does some things I don't like and doesn't present the flexibility or power in use. Do you know what I discovered after a short while? I didn't care - it did a good enough job, and it wasn't worth the effort of micro-managing my playlists in painstaking detail the way I'd done before.
Re:But but but... (Score:5, Insightful)
I hate this decision, and see no benefit to Apple from it except to "drive eyeballs" to iTunes, which is horrible, and thus ITMS. So between that and making the recording industry feel more comfortable, since they just broke all the third party apps to let people copy THEIR OWN MUSIC off of their iPod, I'd say it's "Lose/Lose" to the users.
Still happy I bought my Mac, still like my iPod, probably will skip a new one if this doesn't get fixed. What other players allow music to be Scrobbled when you plug them into your machine, and what apps support these properly? Amarok? I hope?
Because they made it cool (Score:5, Insightful)
Apple convinced everyone that a music player was something you needed to have, and their's was the stylish one to get. As such, they managed to grab the majority of the market.
Well, once you've got something like that going, inertia will carry you a long way. People don't like change, once they get something that works for them they don't change it without reason. As such you get people sold on iPods and when they need a new player, they just go and get another one, they don't really look at alternates. It works for them, why change?
Finally you should know that individuality isn't something most hold in a high regard. Even most of the "non-conformist" types simply work real hard to conform with their given non-conformist group. It's rare to find people who simply don't give a shit and do their own thing regardless of society.
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Re:My wife was given an Ipod for Christmas.. (Score:5, Funny)
It is a proprietary format for encoding troll posts.
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Are you sure that's because iTunes doesn't support the format you used (which I find unlikely unless you ripped to WMA, which as other posters have pointed out was stupid to begin with)? I ask because the other (and more likely, in my opinion) possibility is that your wife has the "Copy files to iTunes Music folder when adding to library" and
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AAC and MP3 are still proprietary, you know. They're standards, yes, but proprietary ones. In contrast, the Xiph formats (e.g. Vorbis, FLAC) are actually not proprietary.
The thing that makes a format proprietary or not is whether anyone is allowed to implement and/or use it without paying royalties, not how popular it is.
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There's a sucker born every minute.
Re:But but but... (Score:5, Funny)
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It's a fine line to walk for them, as a business beholden to stock holders, and they do a reasonable job of it in some aspects and a horrible job in others. This is just one of the ways they've done a horrible job. They've never tried to include any sort of support of the
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You say they have "long been proprietary with whatever it suits them to be proprietary with"....but their position on DRM doesn't really jibe with this. I'm sure you could come up with something self serving there too, but that seems like a stretch. The only self serving thing I can think o
Re:But but but... (Score:5, Insightful)
On the one hand, I empathize with wanting control of the platform. On the other, I just can't work up any sympathy for them. They're certainly going to fail in the long-term, unless the invoke the DMCA... a move which would alienate them with the rip/burn crowd they've courted over the last many years, but might make them friends with the networks that they've lost.
Re:The obvious answer... (Score:4, Informative)
How many days until someone develops a work around (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:How many days until someone develops a work aro (Score:4, Insightful)
The thing you're missing is that Apple executives did not sit down and decide to make things hard for Linux users. Probably they sat down and looked for a way to stop MS from making WMP work with the iPod, since, MS uses similar lock in strategies against them in other markets every day. They were probably considering Sony and maybe Real. They may or may not have considered Linux at all and if they did they probably decided there were so few Linux users that the impact would not be as bad as letting MS leverage their monopolies to push Apple out of markets while not taking every effort to leverage their own near monopoly.
Normally I'd object pretty strongly to any sort of enforced tie ins like this, but when competing against MS and while it is clear the Justice department will do nothing to stop their abuses, Apple and all other companies competing with them are in a very bad spot. Two wrongs don't make a right, but anything that stops MS from becoming the sole gatekeeper for DRM and all media within the next decade sounds like something we really, really need. And make no mistake, if not for Apple's iPod and Apple leveraging it, WMP would be the format for almost all legal music on the internet and MS would be taking a cut of it and preparing to stop said music from playing on Linux and other OS's altogether
Also, I don't own an iPod and am pretty sure there will be a work around in short order.
Re:How many days until someone develops a work aro (Score:4, Insightful)
1) You're assuming that this change is intended purely to alienate Linux users. This change was probably made for some other reason, and alienating Linux users was a (possibly unintended) side-effect of it.
2) The iPod never claimed to carry any sort of support for Linux whatsoever. It seems to me that if you wanted to support Linux, you'd buy a product that actually supports Linux instead of one that doesn't-- and then complaining when the hack you're using to get it to work no longer works!
it's not stupidity (Score:3, Informative)
Apple isn't stupid. You can bet that this move was carefully considered and motivated by the bottom line. I agree that they probably aren't concerned that much with locking out Linux users, but you can bet that they are concerned about free tools that access the contest of the device.
Re:How many days until someone develops a work aro (Score:4, Interesting)
Granted, Apple is well within its rights to do such a thing, but it's bad PR. People are starting to warm up to the idea that once you buy something, you should be able to use it however you like (since you BOUGHT it). Apple has no obligation to support 3rd party software, but neither are they obligated to break 3rd party software. Without any other explanation, it looks like it was a deliberate attempt to lock out non-Apple software. And that's why people are upset - it's the same reason DRM riles so many people.
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They could just be for integrity checking. Maybe Apple doesn't want people using 3rd party utilities that screw up the iPods then having to get the calls from those users furious that the thing no longer works. That's one explanation. Maybe with all the executable stuff they offer now (games, which will probably increase) the iPod is so popular it is becoming a bigger target and they don't want "How your iPod can kill your computer... story at 11PM" plastered all over the TV. By not telling others how to do
Re:How many days until someone develops a work aro (Score:4, Funny)
Question (Score:3, Interesting)
Danger, Will Robinson! DMCA Alert (Score:5, Interesting)
However, if you are in the USA you are running the risk of Apple invoking the DMCA.
I hope they don't. I hope you succeed. I firmly believe from a technical standpoint it can be done. My concern is the legal ramifications.
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Apple has added a hash to the iTunes Library database. The music is not encrypted*, so we're not talking about breaking encryption to bypass DRM, and the database is not copyrighted, so we're not talking about breaking encryption to bypass DRM. The DMCA doesn't apply.
* Unless you bought encrypted music from the iTunes Store, but even if you did, we're not talking about breaking that encryption.
*sniff* (Score:5, Insightful)
design now defective (Score:5, Insightful)
Rockbox (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Rockbox (Score:4, Informative)
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I hate iTunes (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I hate iTunes (Score:5, Insightful)
The trick is to let the software do its job without micromanaging it. Focus on what you want to get done rather than the detailed steps of how to get there, and you'll find that it does actually end up being easier and faster.
(Actually, that's generally the problem with open source UIs, I've found. Sure, they provide every possible way to customize every detailed step of the process... but all I want to do is accomplish X! If I want to break things down into algorithmic steps and tweak the parameters of those steps, well, that's what programming is and I do that enough in my job and my side projects. Applications should just work, they shouldn't need to be programmed.)
Re:I hate iTunes (Score:5, Interesting)
Why do you want your music files organized a certain way? The point of iTunes and such software is that you shouldn't need to care how it's organized- you should be able to focus on the task you *actually* want to accomplish: 1) Find specific music. 2) Play said music. 3) Put a subset of your music on an mp3 player. 4) Burn cds of subsets of your music.
Having to organize files is a problem, not part of a solution to a problem- you should simply be able to perform the above tasks without needing to worry about the details. That's the philosophy of software design with systems like iTunes.
That's one of the things that has really pushed me away from Linux and toward MacOS X for everyday usage over the past years- the focus on actually getting something done rather than worrying about the stuff that I have to do first in order to subsequently get something done.
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Oh please. I have playlists with new music, old '60s music, favorite music by ratings, by genres, by year, by specific playlists, and so on. And the "notes" field is great for tagging songs and albums.
Typical notes field: rock, classic, 60s, folk, female, vocal, soft, background
Use that and the other fields (type, grouping, rating, and so on) and I can create hundreds of meaningful custom "subsets" of mus
Re:I hate iTunes (Score:5, Insightful)
I just hate iTunes. I know other people like it, but it seems to me that non-tech people find iTunes easy, and tech folks don't. As a tech guy, iTunes drives me insane. It doesn't do what I want, doesn't do things my way, does things I don't expect, etc.
I think much of it is a control issue. Techies tend to be control freaks. We also grew up with Winamp (or similar), and are used to devising our own directory structure for our music collection, expecting to have iTunes use our file management schemas. When I first started using it, I got confused. Where the hell are my music files? Why is it recopying what I just put over there? Why won't it let me play these files?
After a day of this, I just said 'screw it' and let iTunes put shit where it wants to, and I decided it does a good job. That's the difference in perception - iTunes is a good system to get music from various sources and never have to worry about the notion that music is contained in 'files.' If you try to buck the system, you and iTunes will hate each other.
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Now try to uninstall iTunes. EVERY SINGLE ID3 tag you edited with it will be completely wiped out. I was lucky that I had backups of all my music, otherwise I would have had to input tags for about 90Gb worth of music.
I'm good with what CDDB grabs, so no big deal.
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Hmm... I was under the impression that iTunes writes the ID3 info to the file. Sure, it keeps stuff like play counts only in its database, but I thought it wrote stuff like the title to the actual song. Am I wrong?
Re:I hate iTunes (Score:4, Informative)
Note that the aforementioned tool works only by using Applescript to make iTunes transcode files, then transfers those files to the secondary library's directories -- there's no attempt to transfer data directly between the iTunes Library database files. The secondary iTunes picks up everything just fine from only the file-stored metadata.
The possible exception to this may be album art downloaded from iTunes (as opposed to that originally embedded in tracks and/or manually acquired using something like the AmazonArt widget, web search, etc.). Haven't really experimented in this area much yet...
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There is some information that's stored only in the iTunes Library, and not in ID3 tags - for example play counts, song ratings (those little star things), and the options for when to begin and end playing a particular track. This information will be lost if something happens to your iTunes Library database. However, anything that is stored in the file (title, artist, album, genre, etc. - even album cover art) should not be lost if you uninstall iTunes.
It would actually
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I started using iTunes on Windows as jukebox software while working at Microsoft. Previous to that, I'd been using Winamp while at work to listen to the 80Gigs or so of music that I had on my work computer.
Here's why I switched:
First, my listening preference at the time was what I like to call 'Gong Show Radio', where Winamp would run in random mode on a playlist of all my music. If a song came up that I didn't like or wasn't in
Could Apple be sued over this? (Score:3, Interesting)
I'd like to see some legal type make the case that Apple has a monopoly on portable music players, and that this is an illegally anticompetitive action.
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Re:Could Apple be sued over this? (Score:5, Insightful)
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http://www.apple.com/ipodclassic/specs.html [apple.com]
You have to consider that the iPod page on Apple's site is actually for iTunes:
http://www.apple.com/itunes/ [apple.com]
Then the title is actually, "iTunes+iPod".
Then when you click on the iPod classic there is an iTunes tab:
http://www.apple.com/ipodclassic/itunes.html [apple.com]
They also describe exactly how iTunes+iPod works:
The moment you connect your iPod to a Mac or PC, iTunes syncs music and video
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100% market share isn't required to be a monopoly. Apple has held their market share for decades because they are primarily a hardware distributor and provide the platform for their software. They also control their entire distribution channel (no oem deals needed). The loyal fanbase doesn't hurt either.
The anticompetitive tactics Microsoft has been convicted of in the pa
Linux can't use it? (Score:3, Insightful)
Apple increasingly hostile to Linux users (Score:5, Insightful)
It all started last year when with the release of iTunes 7, Apple purposely broke DAAP [wikipedia.org], ending the compatibility of their iTunes software with various [gnome.org] media players [gnome.org]. Now rhythmbox/amaroK/banshee users can't listen to iTunes shares, and no one has yet been able to break the hash that would allow it.
So it comes as no surprise that the iPod is being further locked down. The closer our desktops get in usability to OS X (and they are not close yet, but making progress), the more of this we'll see.
Disclaimer: I use an OS X desktop and a Linux laptop.
Re:Apple increasingly hostile to Linux users (Score:5, Interesting)
My current laptop is a Dell Precision M70 (top of the line in 2004) with a screaming graphics card (NVidia Quadro FX 1400 Go). It runs Ubuntu. Since it's a Pentium M, I can undervolt it in linux and it runs fairly cool. Wireless, everything works out of the box (though WPA didn't work until the most recent version of Ubuntu, 7.04). I love it.
For things like iPhoto/iMovie/iDVD, you can't beat a mac---I still go back for those. But I'm starting to get sick of this iTunes nonsense, and if there were suitable linux alternatives to iLife (which there aren't, no matter how much we'd like to think so), I would completely ditch OS X.
Worst product launch in a long time (Score:5, Insightful)
Let us count how bad this product launch is:
1) 33% price cut for the iPhone, which threw early adopters in a fit, and then the $100 "rebate".
2) iPod touch is crippled. The Bluetooth is physically there (supposedly) but not enabled. No editing calender appointments. No Notes app or the other apps from iPhone. Screen issues with the contrast & blackness versus the iPhone.
3) iPod Classic, slower less responsive UI. Old Video accessories don't work with the iClassic.
4) iPod Nano, the FatPod. Same slower UI as the Classic. No memory increase.
Seriously, in 10 days Apple seems to have found a way to piss everyone off. Now they go after the Linux community. How badly have they bungled this product launch?
1) As a non-iPhone owner or wanter, the brew-ha-ha over the $200 price cut irritates me not because of the price cut but the reaction is such that you better believe Apple won't ever make similar price cuts in the future.
Plus you know a 16GB iPhone will come out as soon as the iPhone is released in Europe.
2) Once again, the iTouch will be jailbreaked and the iPhone apps ported to the iTouch, but this type of needless product differentiation crippling cause bad will. And, this hacking may break whenever Apple releases a firmware update. For example, the Linux lock-out of this story.
Apple could have just given people the product they want in the first place. As the screams of people have shown, there is a market for a phoneless iPhone.
The screen issues are unfixable but possibly explained by manufacturing variables.
3) The iClassic is the least changed and therefore least disliked of the new products. The software (DRM) incompatibility with video accessories is unnecessary.
4) Now the FatPod is merely ugly. It is a shame about the less responsive UI. And really it was time to bump up the storage to 16gb. One wonders if the storage was capped at 8Gb in an attempt to differentiate this versus the iTouch. After all if they are needlessly crippling the iTouch why not nerf the FatPod?
Is it just hurbis that has gotten Apple's head so far up its ass, or is this just a cyclical Apple implosion? If the latter, we are in for a few more years of Apple stupidity before they re-emerge with some new wonder product.
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Actually, iFixit [ifixit.com] just disassembled a Touch, and found there is no bluetooth hardware [gizmodo.com] at all. It was just a mistake on the part of an Apple product-mock-up guy.
only a big deal for ITMS (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:only a big deal for ITMS (Score:4, Interesting)
There are a number of reasons not to use Rockbox. First, it's not yet supported on the new line of iPods, so it's not even an option. Next, rockbox has horrible battery life relative to the iPod firmware. Then there's the interface to consider: I never really could figure out how to find songs or playlists in the rockbox interface. Lastly, the main reason I see to use an iPod is the vast array of addons that are available for the iPod. I have an adapter in my car radio that lets me plug in my iPod and control it with the head unit - don't think you can use that with Rockbox.
That said, I'm still completely content with my old grayscale iPod, which works quite well with Amarok. I've no intentions of "upgrading" until it has completely died. Once that happens, I'll consider another iPod if they're working with Linux again, otherwise Apple has lost a semi-content customer.
Re:only a big deal for ITMS (Score:4, Informative)
MediaMonkey Is Much Better (Score:5, Informative)
How amusing (Score:4, Funny)
Missed the point (Score:4, Insightful)
So, why would Apple want to block third-party apps from writing to iPods? Let's speculate:
- Apple might be getting customer support calls from people who corrupt their iPod databases. So by blocking third-party apps, Apple is reducing support costs.
- Apple is about to make major changes to iTunes, and to the iPod database format, and needs to keep third-party apps from corrupting the new databases.
- Apple wants to be the only way that music gets on iPods for some business reason.
Won't code when the penalty is so high (Score:3, Insightful)
Now we do.
More properitary stuff... (Score:3, Interesting)
Philip's portable DVD/iPOD player is real neat - drop the iPod in the cradle on the device and watch video on a bigger screen.
Apple even sold similar devices in tehir stores - maybe they just want to extort money from companies that build such devices?
Saw it coming... (Score:3, Interesting)
http://lists.mplayerhq.hu/pipermail/ffmpeg-devel/2006-September/015930.html [mplayerhq.hu]
IMHO, everyone should load up the RockBox firmware on their iPods, and tell Apple to screw themselves and their proprietary lockout nonsense, before they try to stop people from upgrading their firmware, too. As an added bonus, you are then able to use higher quality and open/patent-free audio formats (Ogg Vorbis/MPC Musepack).
Re:So I guess... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:So I guess... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:So I guess... (Score:5, Insightful)
http://www.apple.com/feedback/ipod.html [apple.com]
You know what to do. Complaining to the source is sometimes better than complaining to other people with the same opinions.
A gated suburban hell (Score:5, Insightful)
I'll take the chaos and diversity of the city over Apple's quiet little aesthetically pleasing, shiny white, gated suburban community.
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modded down by the iPod fanboys in 3...2...1...
Re:So I guess... (Score:5, Informative)
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It's been a while since I purchased anything on iTunes, but wouldn't QTFairUse take care of that for you?
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Re:So I guess... (Score:5, Funny)
Encrypted firmware prevents Linux on the new iPods (Score:5, Interesting)
They've also made it currently impossible to use alternate OSes on the iPod by encrypting the firmware [ipodlinux.org] on the 2nd gen Nano and all subsequent iPods, which is a much more difficult obstacle to overcome. I'm surprised there isn't as much of an uproar about this on Slashdot.
Re:Encrypted firmware prevents Linux on the new iP (Score:5, Insightful)
I am not. When it comes to Apple, the fanatics will gang up on anybody complaining even a slight bit about Apple. They don't see the irony that Apple has become Microsoft of the DAP market. Force is very strong on them.
Re:Encrypted firmware prevents Linux on the new iP (Score:4, Interesting)
The iphone dev team at iphone dev wiki are due most of the credit, but the fact remains that this iPhone is very hackable, and is looking to be my favorite mobile device. Now they're trying to encrypt the crap out of everthing.
Go fig.
Easily fixed. (Score:5, Insightful)
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I didn't even know Apple had a Directory Access Protocol implementation that they were selling. That's... so... uh... X.500 of them.
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They can have the Double Anal Penetration market, I want no part of it!
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Maybe one that just shows up as a removable drive or is media player independent or doesn't demand you use window or OSX.
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Re:Oh boy (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Oh boy (Score:4, Informative)
Encrypting of the database shouldn't directly affect rockbox, but they've been encrypting the firmware too, and the hardware will not run unencrypted firmware. It's not only the extremely new iPods that rockbox won't run on. I got a 2nd gen nano for free that I would love to install rockbox on, but the encryption thing appears to be one of the reasons they don't have a version for it yet.
So it's not that the encryption of the database directly prevents rockbox. The encryption of the database prevents users from using Linux with the Apple firmware, and since they've been encrypting the firmware for a while, installing rockbox isn't likely to be an option anytime soon.
Re:Linux Schminux (Score:5, Insightful)
The iPod is made of weird. (Score:4, Insightful)
No, the iPod doesn't work this way. It keeps the files in a special part of the file system and even if you put the files there it needs special tools to make it work.
I don't understand why anyone using Linux would bother with an iPod. I found it a horribly frustrating MP3 player because of the annoying user interface and daft click wheel... AND it costs more! Why bother with it?