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Norway Outlaws iTunes

Posted by CowboyNeal on Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:37 PM
from the run-out-of-town dept.
haddieman notes that while many people are getting more and more annoyed at DRM, Norway actually did something about it. The PC World article explains: "Good intentions, questionable execution. European legislators have been giving DRM considerable attention for a while, but Norway has actually gone so far as to declare that Apple's iTunes store is illegal under Norwegian law. The crux of the issue is that the Fairplay DRM that is at the heart of the iTunes/iPod universe doesn't work with anything else, meaning that if you want access to the cast iTunes library, you have to buy an iPod."
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  • Good! (Score:5, Interesting)

    by mrchaotica (681592) * on Thursday January 25 2007, @10:39PM (#17762628)

    Now, when are they going to outlaw all the other DRM-infested music stores? If "Fairplay" is unfair, then so is "PlaysForSure!"

    • Re:Good! (Score:5, Insightful)

      by flawedgeek (833708) <`karldnorman' `at' `gmail.com'> on Thursday January 25 2007, @10:44PM (#17762680)
      The difference between fairplay and playsforsure is that fairplay *only* supports ipod, playsforsure is compatible with all sorts of hardware. I get the impression that Norway doesn't have a problem with the DRM itself, it's because it forces you to use specific hardware.
      • Re:Good! (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Monsuco (998964) on Thursday January 25 2007, @10:51PM (#17762762) Homepage
        The difference between fairplay and playsforsure is that fairplay *only* supports ipod, playsforsure is compatible with all sorts of hardware. I get the impression that Norway doesn't have a problem with the DRM itself, it's because it forces you to use specific hardware.
        I think this is sorta right, however I think it more or less falls along the lines of apple dominates the MP3 player market and is using that to force out competition in the online music market.
      • Re:Good! (Score:5, Funny)

        by ePhil_One (634771) on Thursday January 25 2007, @10:53PM (#17762786) Journal
        it's because it forces you to use specific hardware.

        You can use the Nano, the Shuffle, the Mini, the Photo, the Video, etc. And not just Apple iPod's, but Hp iPod's too. Not to mention bot PC's and Mac's, which Plays4Sure can't. What is specific about that?

            • Re:Good! (Score:5, Insightful)

              by Mr2001 (90979) on Friday January 26 2007, @01:50AM (#17764620) Homepage Journal

              My HP ink cartridge only works in my model of HP printer. Should that also be illegal?
              Yes, it probably should be illegal for HP to make their printers only work with ink cartridges from HP--or at least it should be legal for competing companies to make HP-compatible cartridges.

              Or hitting closer to home on your exampe, the ECU in my Ford only works in a Ford Exporer. So it should be illegal for Ford to sell that ECU? That doesn't make sense.
              No, it doesn't, but that's because you're missing the point.

              What's stopping a competing company from making aftermarket ECUs? Nothing, I suspect. Ford hasn't done anything to stop third parties from making parts that fit in a Ford, nor have they done anything to stop competing auto companies from making cars that accept Ford parts.

              Apple, OTOH, has done exactly that.

              The reality of the situation is that the DRM is not there to prevent competition as its primary purpose. [...] but that the actual primary reason for the DRM is to satisfy the recording industry's conditions for playing ball with Apple.
              If that were true, then Apple would license FairPlay to other music stores and hardware manufacturers, wouldn't they? That's what Microsoft did with PlaysForSure, but Apple has reacted quite fiercely when competitors have tried to get in on FairPlay.

              One purpose of FairPlay is to appease the record company. The other purpose, which is arguably more important, is to enforce lock-in between iPod and iTunes. This promotes the iPod by (1) tying the most popular, best-known music store to a single line of players, and (2) encouraging iPod users to build up a library of songs that will become practically useless if they switch brands, effectively threatening iPod owners to keep buying Apple (except those who get all their music by ripping CDs rather than from iTMS).
      • Re:Good! (Score:5, Funny)

        by Stormwatch (703920) <rodrigogirao@nosPAm.hotmail.com> on Thursday January 25 2007, @11:04PM (#17762924) Homepage
        playsforsure is compatible with all sorts of hardware.
        Except the Zune.
      • by grimJester (890090) on Friday January 26 2007, @01:55AM (#17764650)
        I'm just watching BBC World, where a guy called Torgeir Waterhouse from the Norwegian Consumer Council talks about this. When asked about competitors like Microsoft and the Zune, he said they are all illegal under Norwegian law. They only went after iTunes first because it's largest.
        • Re:Good! (Score:5, Insightful)

          by TheGavster (774657) on Thursday January 25 2007, @11:29PM (#17763176) Homepage
          Norway isn't asking Apple to take extra steps to interoperate with competitors' hardware, they're asking them to take less steps to prevent interoperability. There is a difference between dictating that the music be offered in an arbitrary codec and dictating that the music be offered in a form usable by a player supporting the codec that is used.
            • Re:Good! (Score:5, Insightful)

              by ShieldW0lf (601553) on Thursday January 25 2007, @11:34PM (#17763232) Journal
              It's really simple to explain.

              See, they have this nation over there called Norway, bunch of Democratic Socialists, and the people that live there, they have all sorts of gadgets and music distribution networks and formats and whatnot, and they think that it sucks when all these different companies decide to screw the end user and try to make them pay over and over to listen to the same bunch of songs by the same bunch of retired or dead musicians, or force them to buy their hardware upgrade from the same company so they don't lose their music library.

              So they made it illegal to do that to people.

              You can talk all you want about the value of these business relationships and the investments and monopolies till you're blue in the face, but it's really kind of irrelevant. The Norwegians decided that these sorts of arrangements amount to unfair business practices, so unless Apple wants to play by their rules, it appears Apple is free to go peddle their shit somewhere else.
            • Re:Good! (Score:5, Insightful)

              by HAKdragon (193605) <hakdragon.gmail@com> on Friday January 26 2007, @12:22AM (#17763744)
              It makes me wonder though, is the Zune store illegal in Norway too???

              While I wonder the same thing, the Zune store is currently only available in the US.
            • Re:Good! (Score:5, Insightful)

              by x2A (858210) on Friday January 26 2007, @12:39AM (#17763922)
              "Hello, thats what DRM is all about"

              Since when?! DRMed CDs, DVDs, HD-DVDs, BluRays... they play on a multitude of different devices, from different companies. Windows doesn't limit what hardware you can run it on, and all the other 3rd party software that only runs on Windows? Well that's the people who write the software's decision.

              Norway has outlawed iTunes because you don't have the choice of what hardware from what company to listen to it on. It's Apples' players only.

            • Re:Good! (Score:5, Insightful)

              by Fordiman (689627) <fordimanNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Friday January 26 2007, @12:52AM (#17764042) Homepage Journal
              "I mean c'mon Microsoft get a pass for operating systems 90%"

              Really? Since when? Does 'Monopoly Suit' mean 'pass' in your world?

              Hell, most of the developing world is /avoiding/ MS completely, and a number of European and American city governments are in the process of migrating away from them.

              Meanwhile, Apple's 80% market share of iPod/iTunes zombies notwithstanding, it's the only DRM maker that doesn't license out its format. It's not the former that's got Norway up in arms, it's the latter.
                  • Re:Good! (Score:5, Insightful)

                    by x2A (858210) on Friday January 26 2007, @02:13AM (#17764824)
                    "How hard would it be for a recording company to copyright all of the hash values for every common LAME/Nero/WinAMP encoding option set?"

                    Impossible. Firstly - do you know how many combinations that is? Just with VBR files, you have each different value for the lower bitrate AND upper bitrate bounds, multiply by each of the quality bias values, multiply by stereo (joint vs seperate) options, multiply by frequency options (44100, 48000)... THEN you could just drop or raise the volume of the whole track by 1%, and get completely different codes for each of those combo's... then 2%... or increase the bass by 1%... in the end, you're probably talking about so many different values, that you'd get hash colisions with a file that isn't that copyrighted material, which would prove the whole system flawed.

                    Secondly - you'd have to publish (in some form or another) all of those codes to show you created them.

                    So no, it's not funny at all that they haven't tried it.

  • by User 956 (568564) on Thursday January 25 2007, @10:41PM (#17762656) Homepage
    haddieman notes that while many people are getting more and more annoyed at DRM, Norway actually did something about it.

    It sounds like they've decided it's either Norway or the Highway.
  • by dogbrt (913020) on Thursday January 25 2007, @10:45PM (#17762696)
    Kenya Kenya Kenyaaaaa....
  • Heads exploding (Score:5, Insightful)

    by jmorris42 (1458) * <jmorris@noSpam.beau.org> on Thursday January 25 2007, @10:57PM (#17762836) Homepage
    Gaaa!

    Norway == socialists == doubleplus good

    DRM == doubleplus ungood

    iTunes == Apple == doubleplus good

    Norway outlaws iTunes? What is a good gay socialist Mac user going to do? What is the right side to be on?

    Ok, trolling is fun and all, but seriously.

    I think it's a load. People have the right to be stupid. Without that as Right 0 no other "Right" can be read as anything other than "You have the Right to ____ unless we, the anointed elite, think decide your exercise of it is dumb." It's why the 1st Amendment is safe so long as -both- Noam Chomsky and StormFront were free to rant and rave but didn't survive John McCain & Russ Feingold.

    I'd never buy from the iTunes store because I think the deal offered is one sided, shortsighted and stupid. But I'll defend Steve's Right to try to sell it and your Right to freely enter into a license agreement with him.
  • by Albanach (527650) on Thursday January 25 2007, @11:04PM (#17762928) Homepage
    It's not so much that you need an iPod to enjoy your itunes purchases, but that you are locked into future hardware purchases from Apple

    If you buy many albums from the iTunes sture you can enjoy them and all is rosy. Then two years later the battery on your iPod has died, so you look at what's available. You think there are some nice offerings from creative or sandisk but, trouble is, you can't listen to any of your existing purchases. Your locked to Apple.

    It's well boyond time that other players were allowed to license Fairplay, and that other music providers be allowed to sell Fairplay encoded tracks.
  • by AutumnLeaf (50333) on Thursday January 25 2007, @11:06PM (#17762958)
    What I found interesting about this article is that it seems to advocate one choice is better than no choice, and implies Norway is harming its citizens and consumers by depriving them of a monopoly.

    This tends to be the self serving argument monopolists use when justifying their actions. "By enhancing the user experience by bundling a product the user experience is enhanced. Depriving them of our monopolistic business model harms them."

    In my view, choice is never bad. Competition is good. Apple won their market share by out-innovating the rest of the pack. But history is full of examples of the stagnation occurs once a market is consolidated. So I think other players should be allowed to work with iTunes.
    • by mrchaotica (681592) * on Thursday January 25 2007, @10:55PM (#17762816)
      But is Norway violating users rights by not letting them use DRM?

      "Not letting them use DRM" would be a Hell of a lot better than what Norway's actually doing, which is giving Microsoft's "PlaysForSure" DRM (which is just as proprietary!) preferential treatment.

        • by mrchaotica (681592) * on Thursday January 25 2007, @11:10PM (#17762998)
          It's not preferential. Other companies can make products that interoperate with PlaysForSure.

          Really? Then show me where I can get a software player not made by Microsoft capable of playing PlaysForSure Media! In particular, show me where I can get one that works on operating systems other than Windows!

          Just because some companies are in compliance with proposed new regulations and some aren't doesn't mean that making new regulations is "unfair".

          The only "fair" regulations would be ones that outlaw DRM entirely. To do what they've actually done -- especially when done in the name of "protecting consumers" -- is a farce!

    • Re:And... (Score:5, Informative)

      by eebra82 (907996) on Thursday January 25 2007, @11:01PM (#17762888) Homepage
      I don't like that comparison. For starters, Gillette don't have much of a choice since there is no standard format for razer blades. In addition, there are replicated blades available on the market for a lower price. iTunes, on the other hand, uses common software but has intentional limitations set to it.

      Also, when you are in a dominant position as an online music store, you kind of have advantages over all of the competition, so what they're doing is more related to what Microsoft did with Internet Explorer.

      Last but not least, you must remember that newly formed laws on computer software cannot be compared to the laws of items.
    • by Encrypto (1054956) on Thursday January 25 2007, @11:06PM (#17762940)
      There's a solid technical reason why Wii games only run on a Wii. Technical incompatibility of DRM-locked music, however, is a purely artificially imposed barrier to interoperability. It's gratuitous incompatibility.

      Imagine that every car manufacturer operated a chain of gas stations. All cars could run on the same fuel, but every brand of car had a bizarrely shaped fuel intake that would only accept the corresponding bizarrely shaped nozzle. You could only fill up a Toyota at a Toyota gas station, a Ford and a Ford station, etc.

      Further, if you dared to try to create adapter for universal fueling, you'd be thrown in jail and fined tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars for violating the laws the big car companies paid politicians all around the world to pass, to protect there little lock-in schemes.

      You could either go along with such BS, and happily sing the tune the car companies want you to sing ("If you don't like it, you can don't have to buy a car! No one's forcing you! Just by a bicycle and shut up already!"), or you could cheer along the efforts to end protected for deliberately imposed incompatibility and improve things for consumers instead.
      • by AusIV (950840) on Thursday January 25 2007, @11:25PM (#17763130)
        The argument could be made that if Nintendo would just license the right specifications, other companies could build consoles that play Wii games. My computer for instance would probably be capable of emulating the Wii architecture, but if someone created and distributed a Wii emulator, they would certainly get a DMCA takedown notice, and likely face a law suit. While I don't feel your argument of Wii games only running on Wiis is completely valid, I agree with the rest of your analogy.

        The thing that irritates me the most about DRM is that it's illegal to circumvent. I have no problem with companies choosing to use DRM, and I have no problem with companies pursuing pirates in court. But when the DRM limits legitimate uses of the media and customers are stripping the DRM solely so they can use it on another platform, I have a problem with legal action being taken against them. Granted, if the DMCA didn't protect DRM there would be commercial investments dedicated to fighting DRM and it wouldn't last long at all, but I still don't feel consumers ought to have to worry about using their media the way they want to.

    • Re:Oh, F'ing please (Score:5, Informative)

      by mrchaotica (681592) * on Thursday January 25 2007, @11:42PM (#17763306)

      1. Buy song on iTunes
      2. Menu: Advanced => Convert selection to .mp3

      I'm sorry, this is only a problem for morons.

      Obviously I must be a moron then, because when I tried that this message popped up:

      "Doctor My Eyes" could not be converted because protected files cannot be converted to other formats.