EU Countries Call Out iTunes DRM 457
seriouslywtf writes "Europe is upping the pressure on Apple to open up its restrictive DRM that ties iTunes to the iPod. Norway ruled last year that the iPod-iTunes tie-in was unreasonable and gave Apple a deadline to make a change to its policies, but was unsatisfied with the response they got. Now France and Germany have joined forces with Norway, making it a lot harder for Apple to just walk away from those markets. From the article: 'France's consumer lobby group, UFC-Que Choisir, and Germany's Verbraucherzentrale are now part of the European effort to push Apple into an open DRM system, with more countries considering joining the group. However, the company has been under some fire over the last year due to those restrictions, first with France and then Denmark looking to open up restrictive DRM schemes (including, but not limited to iTunes) ... Norwegian consumer groups were unimpressed by Apple's response. Norway has now given Apple a new deadline of September of this year to change its policies, and the pressure on Apple will likely grow in the months leading up to the deadline.'"
So, they want to get rid of iTunes? (Score:5, Interesting)
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A magazine I subscribe to included in this month's issue a free 35 song sample from eMusic.com. I investigated it and the service was horrible in every way. Music catalog sucked. Finding songs in their catalog sucked. The sound quality of samples sucked. Their purchasing options were limited to three subcription models. Even with free music samples I could not find any compelling reason to use their service. If a company wants to compete successfully against an iTunes, they better offer an advantage somewh
because it's a SAMPLE! (Score:3, Insightful)
Ever been to the grocery store (or Costco) when they're handing out free samples? They don't make the free samples taste like moldy dung because they're "not making any money" on them -- they just make the samples smaller. Samples are (theoretically) a small, yet indicative representation of what you'd get for your purchase. . . whether it's food or music.
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A magazine I subscribe to included in this month's issue a free 35 song sample from eMusic.com. I investigated it and the service was horrible in every way. Music catalog sucked. Finding songs in their catalog sucked. The sound quality of samples sucked. Their purchasing options were limited to three subcription models. Even with free music samples I could not find any compelling reason to use their service.
I've used emusic. Their catalog is limited compared to ITMS. That's true. I can't judge the sound quality of your samples, but they offer 192 bit MP3 download. ITMS offers 128 bit AAC with DRM. Maybe AAC is better than MP3, but I don't think ITMS offers better quality. Then emusic offers MP3, no DRM!
Their publishing options are limited to three subscription models. What do you want to say here? That this is a bad thing? ITMS only has one option. Normally emusic is a lot cheaper than ITMS. The cheapest
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eMusic carries what they can. If you're upset you can't find your favorite artist on eMusic, the culprit is 90% of the time going to be the label the artist is on doesn't want eMusic to sell the songs due to lack of DRM.
It's getting really old hearing people bitch about how eMusic has no good music, like they're the ones responsible for that. You can't have lots of Top-40/Major Label artists and no DRM at the same time. Pick o
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Re:So, they want to get rid of iTunes? (Score:5, Interesting)
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What is the big deal here? I mean, you CAN buy music from other sources....something as easy as a CD, rip it, put it on the iPod and play it all you want. You don't have to buy music through iTunes, you can play non-DRM music on an iPod and through iTunes...the only place you get hit with DRM is if you buy through the iTunes store, and noone is holding a gun to anyone's head to do that.
Hell, I think stats show that most iPod owners do not ge
Re:So, they want to get rid of iTunes? (Score:5, Interesting)
Uh, no. This should be changed to: "Apple is locking out other hardware makers from being able to play music purchased from iTunes with no extra effort ."
Right now, you can buy music from iTunes, burn them to a CD or a CD-RW, then rip them in whatever format you want and that your musicplayer supports. Now, it's a hassle for consumers to go through this process [someone did write a script on the Mac to automatically do this process using a CD-RW], but it certainly works.
Where exactly should the line be drawn? Should iTunes re-encode to wmv [bleh]? Or should Apple be forced to license their DRM for other manufacturers to include in their devices? Then does iTunes [the app] also need to be forced to directly support all these other devices [because it would be a hassle for consumers to use another app to sync their device after buying through iTunes]? Or does it have to be totally licensed, so other's can also 'vend' iTunes DRM'ed music as well [possibly with iTunes needing to also support these other music stores]?
But I am in agreement that changing the contract terms after the sale and using British laws should be fixed.Re:So, they want to get rid of iTunes? (Score:5, Interesting)
The "no extra effort" is very important. You could always uses Netscape with Windows instead of IE with a little extra effort.
In this case a heavy iTunes/iPod uses can have his entire collection in iTunes. If that's the case in order to use another player than the iPod the user need to burn its entire collection.
That would too bad for the user (and a common business practice) but when you reach a certain importance on a market, authorities can blame you for this "extra effort". They must do it for a monopoly, but they can also do it to achieve specific goals.
I think the EU (at least France and Germany ) has in mind to force portability of various DRM to open the market ( concurrency on product features instead of compatibility matrix ) In that case they go for the biggest player first and others will follow.
How Apple will do that? EU says nothing as far as I know. But if Apple doesn't comply they will simply follow Microsoft path: they will be fined millions euro per day until they release the complete documentation and keys of their DRM.
Re:So, they want to get rid of iTunes? (Score:4, Interesting)
You can't do that without a potentially serious loss of quality though. Any music you purchase from the iTMS has already undergone lossy compression to the point that it's quite audible. If you burn it to CD and then re-rip to another lossy format the quality degrades further. So it's clearly an inferior product than the music you've bought. That's unacceptable IMHO.
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There are devices that can play iTunes DRM-coded songs that Apple don't make? Last I heard Apple were suing anyone who tried to get non-iPods to play iTMS music, and iPods to play non-iTMS (DRMed) content?
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It would be interesting for Apple to make the argument that the burn-to-CD option is the "openness" in their DRM system, but I doubt that would satisfy anyone.
Frankly I think Europe would be better off -- and Apple might be, too -- if th
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2. Install iTunes.
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Alternatively you could just dump a mainframe on some skateboards or something. Hurrah.
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Virtualisation? You could install hundreds of iTunes instances!
Many, many skateboards, on the other thing.
Re:So, they want to get rid of iTunes? (Score:4, Funny)
Misunderstanding of each other points and subtile but flawed rebutals... check!
Dialogues based on some premises that a PC is not a portable device... check!
Man this is slashdot at its best! I would mod you both up, but I'll just reply.
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Well, I thought it was funny. *sniffle*
Priorities (Score:2, Insightful)
Bout time. (Score:4, Insightful)
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iTunes allows that without difficulty.
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My point is that even if they removed any restrictions, I would still buy an iPod and I would buy tracks from iTunes because the entire experience is better than what I've seen elsewhere.
Re:I sense an embellishment (Score:2)
If you had, you'd know that Apple isn't forcing anyone to buy music from iTMS. Me, I've been using iTunes since the beginning of this century and I've somehow managed to never buy any music from iTMS.
Of course, I've had Apple goons break my legs a couple times, but they can pry the MP3's out of my cold, dead hands. (And they're trying. I've experienced a couple drive-by shootings in
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I *choose* to spend money on tracks on iTune because it's easy for me. I don't wnat to spend the time to buy a CD, take it home, unwrap it, and click "burn"
I also don't want to search Peer-to-peer sites, find the version that has some semblance of the correct meta-data and deal with it that way.
I know Apple isn't forcing me to use their system. I just don't care about *a lot* (ie- not all) of my music enough to really care about it.
But in the US, we get the "PERFORM Act" (Score:5, Insightful)
Is this a great country, or what?
Sigh.
-S
Act (Score:2)
I burn at 128, a lower resolution copy, which is within fair use for those who wish to call me a thief...
Re:But in the US, we get the "PERFORM Act" (Score:5, Insightful)
They are? It sounds to me like they are just trying to make digital music player makers, distributors, etc. license each others' DRM schemes to increase DRM interoperability. If they were saying that "DRM is unfair to the people", they could just ban it. That would also address both of their complaints (iTunes songs don't play on non-iPods, iPods don't play DRM-encumbered songs bought elsewhere) as people would use the MP3 format for songs, and it plays on everything.
Don't be fooled (Score:2, Troll)
Apple has a lock on the market and this is just a political move. The only difference is that the politicians involved aren't owned by the US government this time.
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The Europeans want Apple to make its DRM more widely available. Who wants DRM? Not consumers. What consumer says "ohh, I love DRM, give me more of that"? Nobody. At best consumers tolerate DRM.
DRM is there because record labels want it. The Europeans want it to be easier for labels to use DRM. How is that pro-consumer?
As for the whole lock-in argument, I don't buy it. Apple does not lock anybody in t
Re:But in the US, we get the "PERFORM Act" (Score:5, Insightful)
In which get right means what? To be even more restrictive? Do you see that or you just have a lot of good faith in the companies and lobbies pushing for DRM?
Enjoy it, and pray for the next DRM schemes not to be much worse. Personally, I'd rather have a government which cleans garbage which is bad for the consumers off of the market.
Why Apple? (Score:5, Insightful)
In any case, no user is actually tied - just burn a playlist on to a CD and copy the MP3's to any device.
Should Wallmart be forced to allow K-Mart to sell goods via the Wallmart checkout systems?
the k-mart/wal-mart analogy is very wrong (Score:3, Interesting)
The problem becomes, whats in it for Apple? I think now that the iPod is so successful that there is little risk allowing iTunes to work with other players, other than the support issues that the other players just foul up iTunes. Same goes for the reverse, allowing the iPod to be easily integrated to other Music managers
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Translation: (Score:5, Interesting)
Look, I loathe DRM as much as the next guy, but Apple's not using their market dominance to smack around, say, Microsoft from making a run at them. Microsoft is doing a FINE job all by themselves at lousing up their attempts to dethrone Apple.
Ergo, this is just market forces at work. The market has spoken, and people prefer the iPod and iTunes to the competition. Until there's good evidence that iTunes prevents someone from, say, playing a WMA file on Windows or the like, Apple's in the clear on this. Let them have their success, and stop monkeying with the system.
Re:Translation: MOD PARENT UP! (Score:2)
"Open DRM" is a contradiction in terms (Score:2, Insightful)
Wrong solution (Score:5, Insightful)
DRM, by definition, causes vendor lock-in. If DRM schemes were licensed under a fair and non-discriminatory policy then they would not work, because anyone who wanted to get around them would be able to get the specification. You could even legally create an open source application which did all of the rights checking inside #ifdefs so if someone defined the IGNORE_DRM symbol then they could compile a version that decrypted the DRM'd content but didn't apply any restrictions. This wouldn't even be illegal, since they would be distributing the version that respected the DRM and end users would be applying the modification.
The correct solution, then, is not for lawmakers to go after Apple, but for them to go after DRM in general. Except on books [pingwales.co.uk], where it makes perfect sense.
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I figure in some random interval unit of time (5 years, maybe?) someone will come along and successfully dethrone the iPod as the default MP3 player. When this happens, consumers are going to be in for a bit of a shock when they realize that none of their AAC files will play (out-of-the-box, anyway) on their shiny new non-iPod player. The same will happen for people who buy Zunes.
And when that happens, the market is going to decide very
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All of the consumers that have purchased music from ITMS cannot play their music in anything but Apple products. Its anti-competitive and Apple should be punished for their behavior.
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Well, you forget, those who would own the specification have no interest in it being licensed "under a fair and non-discriminatory polilcy".
You would have to spend $100,000 to get the document, and you would have to sign agreements not to release the information, or use it as a way of c
Re:Wrong solution (Score:5, Interesting)
Imagine a country in which it was legal to make and even sell software/hardware for the explicit purpose of breaking DRM for interoperability purposes. Software companies could openly employ DRM-breakers like DVD Jon and muslix64. You could go to the store and buy a copy of DeCSS or BackupHDDVD or myFairTunes6, only with user-friendly interfaces developed by paid coders. With the full resources of a completely legal software/hardware company at the disposal of DRM-breakers, it is quite obvious that *no* form of DRM would stand a chance.
Open DRM system?? (Score:2)
I really don't see the point for end users. Music from iTunes store can still be restricted by "Open DRM" to only run on iPod. Music from other providers can have confusing and different restrictions on number of PCs, number/type of devices and expiration time. The only "Open DRM" is an unencrypted MP3 or AAC, but that is already available on iPod.
Does this even make sense? (Score:3, Insightful)
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No, because PS3 games cannot technically run on any other hardware (barring an emulator running on some insanely powerful machine). However, AAC/MP3/etc. files can technically be played on lots of different hardware but Apple is intentionally crippling them to run on their platform only.
To make things fair . . . (Score:2)
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Like we say on efnet (Score:2)
Or what? (Score:5, Funny)
Or else they will send a letter to Apple telling them how upset they are.
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Off Topic: No one should pay (Score:2, Informative)
No one should have to pay to get their music off of their iPod. Hell, even Apple now has a page that explains how to do this without any additional software other than iTunes:
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=300 173 [apple.com]
Al
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just like you can buy softare that doesn't thing as a convience for the consumer.
Simple solution: Decriminalize breaking the DRM (Score:5, Insightful)
Instead of forcing Apple/et al to open up their standards, simply make it legal to break that very DRM if it isn't open. You will very quickly see applications for sale to do it (come out from the shadows) and the Apples of the world will be motivated to change to an open standard.
mhhmm (Score:4, Insightful)
Heresy! Bastards! How dare they! (Score:2, Funny)
Tied in? (Score:2)
I suppose the only real tie-in is that you cannot reasonably use an ipod without having access to a computer. Given how popular ipods are now a days, I bet some people did try that along the ways.
As for using ipods with other mus
An honest complaint? (Score:3, Insightful)
Microsoft buys Norway (Score:2, Funny)
Seems like a formality (Score:2)
Why? (Score:3, Insightful)
There are many arguements below that make the case that you have the RIGHT to buy music without restriction and that the music companies MUST sell it that way. My questions is, why? They own the rights to the product, they have the right to dictate how they want to sell it. The only real right you have is to NOT buy it.
If you want the laws changed to that you have the explicit RIGHT to platform shift, get the law changed. Like it or not, according to the DCMA, there are cases where you don't have that right.
If you want music that is unencumbered by DRM, buy it from somewhere that sells it that way. Buy CDs that don't have copy protection, if you stumble on one that does, return it as defective.
Protectionism (Score:3, Insightful)
This action is more about protectionism, and scoring a few cheap political points with the anti-American populous by going after a visible U.S. corporation, than about protecting consumers. If the E.U. really wanted to protect consumers, they would simply ban all DRM, and the problem would be solved! Of course, then they would piss off big European media companies like Vivendi, who are looking to create a DRMed locked-in European digital music monopoly.
Re:What nonsense! (Score:4, Insightful)
Of course I have been to Europe. And I have never actually watched Fox News except for YouTube clips. But of course, in your mind everyone who disagrees with the utter unquestionable moral superiority and infailability of lily white European socialism must be some stereotypical redneck of your imagination.
Europe is NOT full of monopolies because the EU actively fights against them (example: Microsoft) and all other kinds of trade barriers within the EU.
Or rather, Europe fights against foreign monopolies (example: Microsoft). But that isn't progressive, every place is keen to punish foreign competition in order to give advantage to its own companies. But I don't see it fighting against France Telecom, or Lufthansa, or huge media conglomerates like Vivendi. Look at the downright nasty things Airbus has done to force countries into purchasing Airbus planes (like threatening to vote against full E.U. membership to countries who don't purchase Airbus planes... or making disaster relief funds for tsunami stricken countries contingent on purchasing Airbus planes). The E.U. can be outright predatory when it comes to promoting its own interests.
Of course the E.U. cracked down on Microsoft. They are a visible U.S. company, Europe would like a big piece of that cash pie, and so it promotes E.U. self-interest while scoring cheap points on the anti-American front. Protecting the consumers has nothing to do with it.
The BBC and many other national public broadcasters are NOT monopolies because there is plenty of competition!
And Microsoft isn't really a monopoly either. You can choose MacOS, Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris, etc., etc.. Microsoft was accused of competing "unfairly". Well, if forcing all people who own a TV to pay a licensing fee for a television station they may or may not choose to watch is not unfair competition, I don't know what is. Could you imagine if every computer was forced to purchase a Microsoft license, regardless if you decide to run Microsoft products or not? It would be considered scandalous!
This happens to be the case in Norway as well - for reasons of protecting our language from the massive English influence on the commercial TV-stations.
Or rather, behavior that is considered right-wing xenophobia in North America is considered perfectly reasonable in Norway (at least, that is the impression I gather from your statement). If someone would be proposing the same sorts of "language protection" in the U.S., they would be considered more along the lines of David Duke or Jean-Marie Le Pen.
And as far as Norway is concerned this is about Norwegian consumer protection laws that far better than anything the US has ever seen - they actually protect the consumer! Think democractic socialism where consumers actually have rights.
U.S. consumer protection laws don't have any bearing on the legitimacy of European consumer protection laws. In both places, the consumer protection laws seem to be designed around giving the power-elites more power - With the power elites in Europe being the government autocrat variety, and the power elites in the U.S. being the big business variety. In both places I am highly skeptical of them actually protecting the consumer.
The only thing that protects the consumer are consumers. When the government "protects" the consumer, it turns into a rent seeking scheme where companies bribe politicians in order to avoid government crackdown, and those who remain honest and don't bribe politicians are the ones most likely to suffer. If the E.U. was really concerned about protecting its citizens, it would ban DRM outright - That would be a completely political/national/economicly neutral and universal way to make sure the customer would be protected from lock-in.
Norway is a great friend of the US - and loves America! The population has nothing but great respect for the US.
Norway isn't a frien
Re:I don't get it.... (Score:5, Informative)
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i fail to see how this should warrant forcing apple to license fairplay or allow the ipod to play wma-drm files
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Bzzzt, incorrect! I still buy CD's and rip them myself which, contrary to what the RIAA would have you believe is legal.
If the CD is "copy protected" (given to me as a gift as I refuse to buy any DRMed media), I play it through my external DVD player which has a digital output connected to my PC's sound card. Slightly more work, yet also incontrovertibly legal.
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Why is that Apple's fault? Anyone can sell music in standard formats (MP3, AAC) that will play on an iPod
Re:I don't get it.... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:I don't get it.... (Score:5, Informative)
One might add, that - at least for the German side - it is not "Germany" (or the German government), but the "Verbraucherzentrale", which is a non-profit organization with task to support consumers. They are (partly) sponsored by the German state(s), but they are not a state organisation, ie this is not a political decision.
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But what if I want to buy music on iTMS and play that music on my Zune?
I mean, I guess that's the complaint. It doesn't seem to awful to me, but then again I wouldn't mind if Apple dropped DRM completely.
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Of course, there's a different between iTMS and my printer: if I can't get ink-car
Re:I don't get it.... (Score:5, Insightful)
There is a good reason why screws are and drill bits are available in different sizes. Some jobs warrant larger screws (shelves that carry more weight, etc.)
Typically the user will decide the size required and drill a hole and buy a screw to match. The user _wants_ differing sizes sometimes.
Now, what is the reason I would _want_ to pay for some music that only works on a subset of playback machines? Or want to pay for a music player that didn't play any of my existing collection?
The people making screws in different sizes are not deliberately limiting what the user can do with them. It's the nature of them that creates a limit. Conversely, the nature of digital data is that it can easily be copied to other devices. It takes interference from the manufacturer to create artificial limitations. This is where the problems lies.
Re:I don't get it.... (Score:5, Informative)
If you don't like iTunes and Apple's DRM scheme, don't buy from the Apple music store.
I like my iPod. I own an iPod.
I don't like the iTunes music store. I'd quite like to try out some of these subscription services, ignoring the DRM aspect (which I'm addressing now) I quite like the idea of paying "rent" to have access to a huge music library. And if someone did the same for films I'd like that too, I'd happily pay a fairly big monthly fee to the music and movie people to get unlimited digital viewing of whatever they produce.
What these countries are trying to do is let you use any music player with any music store, and vice versa, and hopefully get rid of the extra DRM problems created by all of this in the mean time. And it doesn't seem to be exclusive to iTunes, it applies to everyone. I'm certainly hoping for these kind of changes, more choice is nver a bad thing.
Yes you are. (Score:2)
I own music that I bought from iTunes.
If I wanted to buy a Zune (Oi - stop sniggering at the back) I'd lose all that music, so if I want to keep on playing it, I need to add the cost of re-purchase to my Zune - this keeps people buying iPods, which keeps them buying iTunes DRM etc.
I paid for that music, it's mine - why is it wrong to want to play that on my next portable music player? Why would I not want to but the best hardware next time, rather than the latest iPod?
The RIAA and MPAA would disagree with you (Score:5, Informative)
I own music that I bought from iTunes.
and:
I paid for that music, it's mine
Actually, one of the problems with DRMed media is that the record and movie companies don't view that you have bought anything. They view it that you have rented it for play on one specific device, which means that if you want an iTunes purchase to play on, say, Zune, you need to buy it again for Zune.
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How about after the irreplaceable battery inside the iPod dies, or the harddrive becomes irreversably corrupt, or the iPod stops functioning in some other way, you decide to go with another brand of player? You'll have to sacrifice any music you bought from the ITMS, which may be worth hundreds of euros. Not many people want to do that. If you use iPod/ITMS, you're locked in. That's the problem.
Ah Haaaaa!!! Give that man a prize! (Score:4, Interesting)
YES! You see, the music industry has this greedy scheme: Get DRM on all devices and then slowly close the door on all free formats. The only problem is that Apple decided to screw the screwers. They put DRM on iTunes that only they could use in addition non DRM formats to ensure wide distribution and seize the marketplace.
Now the RIAA and the copyright cartel have a huge problem. If they beat down on Apple, then Apple may just say "well screw you, we'll just disable any DRM and all music will be free" - ruining their plan to close the doors. However, if they don't beat down on Apple, then Apple will be the DRM master, also runining their greedy plans to be the DRM masters themselves.
The RIAA and the music industry are like the Mexican Army. You see, the Mexican Army (mid 1800) had better equiptment, more men, and better training than the US Army, but the US Army was albe to waltz in and kick ass because none of the Mexican generals trusted each other enough to work together. That's why the western half of America today belongs to the US and not Mexico. Well the same is true with DRM, they will kill each other before they will help their peers at their expense.
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Re:I don't get it.... (Score:5, Insightful)
That easily takes 15 minutes per cd (burning and ripping), and results in quality loss (as 128kbit AAC is good enough, but re-ripping to another format is a bit much).
The time aspect alone makes this route prohibitive...
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Am I not allowed to create my own music format?
sheesh.
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That's because they are fundamentally different media and making them somehow compatible would be practically impossible.
Compare that to digital files which are fundamentally similar and in fact it takes more effort to make them incompatible.
Nobody expects manufacturers to spend time and effort making incompatible things work together, but they do expect them not to spend time and effort on somet
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Woud you then say that web technologies should also be locked into the browser that renders them?
Or word processing files? I can understand a *limited* expectation of behavior (using Lynx for web, or Notepad for text files) but to completely prevent usage seems odd.
I happen to like Apple's closed system though, and I'd continue to use it regardless of DRM- but that doesn't mean open standards aren't important.
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Burn them to CD them rip them to mp3 and play them on your Zune. Problem solved. Your argument may have been valid five years ago when there were still people with computers without a CD burner, but virtually every machine has one today.
Re:WHy is this a problem? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Netflix, Blockbuster video, Las Vegas, the movie industry, exotic dancers....
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They didn't listen on Caprica, either. Look where that got 'em.
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Then the world will be divide in two - those who have iPods and those who don't.
I thought it was already...
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9. Purchase of Apple Content
b. Use of Products. You acknowledge that Products contain security technology that limits your usage of Products to the following Usage Rules, and you agree to use Products in compliance with such Usage Rules.
Usage Rules
You agree that you will not attempt to, or encourage or assist any other person to, circumvent or modify any security
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Second, There are many expensive things that allow you to manipulte much cheaper things. A blender comes to mind. The price of the iPod doesn't matter in this conversation.
this issue and the MS monopoly issue are completly different and as irrelevant as comparing a car to chocolate.
the iPod is just a device for playing music that apple puts out. If they want to make there own music form
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1 a : to hem in b : to make a circuit around
2 : to manage to get around especially by ingenuity or stratagem
Just because Apple haven't asked you to stop, doesn't mean it's not illegal. It's also not illegal because of state/federal/European law regarding personal copies - you agreed to terms and conditions when you bought the music and if you fail to follow them youYou have circumvented copy protection - if you perform the actions you outline, you end up with a close to exact cop
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