A Mac Fan's Take On Vista 499
jcatcw writes "Ken Mingis has been running Vista on a MacBook Pro for a couple of weeks. Highlights from his review: 'Apple's UI is called Aqua. Microsoft calls its interface Aero. Hmmmm... Gadgets and widgets. What's that line about imitation being the sincerest form of flattery?... The UAC implementation in Vista is heavy-handed and intrusive — it halts what you're doing, even if you want to do something as simple as change your clock. My sense here is that Microsoft has been criticized so often for security vulnerabilities that it decided to club users over the head with its new operating system-in-lockdown-mode... I'm more enamored of Vista's Flip 3D feature, which basically takes all of the open windows on your desktop, stands them up on end and stacks them in a way that you can cycle through to the one you want to use. It's similar to what Apple's Expose does... Vista's method wins on aesthetics.'"
Painfully Subjective Review (Score:5, Insightful)
Here's something you could have figured out for me: how efficient are these effects? What's the net cost of having Aqua or Aero? Do these graphical interfaces leave sasquatch sized memory footprints? Are Gadgets & Widgets memory efficient? Does all this extra shit cause any more bugs than a regular operating system without them?
Big deal. Call me when you write an object review. I want to know which of these operating systems will run on my old ass laptop with a low end P4 in it. Not all of us have the new intel core 2 duos.
Congratulations, four pages of inundating me with ads, bitching about UAC & falling head over heels for Aero. Sounds like every other Vista review I've read.
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Duh he -IS- a Mac user!
I am a mac user too and quite honestly except for the new "Ohhs and Ahhs" it does not seem to be much different than XP. Granted, now you get some integration of built-in applications but it still PALES in comparison to iLife. [apple.com]
Vista (Score:5, Informative)
I only have a geforce 4 mx 440 on thre so my score is 1.0 but everything that ran in XP is useable and same performance in vista.. i can swap out video cards and make the desktop fully useable with aero but i like it powering my extenders. Biggest thing i did was optimize the system for services, enable a large cache and dump my recordings on a different drive then what most of my pre-recorded stuff is and have a seperate boot drive as IO is where most of my latency is.
I will be throwing in an XP 2600 becuase i got one off ebay dirt cheap, but there you go. Vista works and it doesn't need a super system like you fellas seem to believe. Beta testers have it working on much lower end systems as well - just add memory.
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Well, that's just wonderful for you. I'm very glad you've found satisfaction with Vista, and unsubstantiated anecdotes are always so valuable in helping us assess new products.
Umm, just one question, wtf did all this have to do with TFA?
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RTFA
"doesn't need a super system"... Oh, the irony... (Score:3, Insightful)
How zippy is your machine? An XP 1700 wita a gigabyte of RAM is capable of simulating regional weather patterns in real time, or of calculating about 10,000 lunar orbital injection trajectories per second, or of playing 100 competition chess games simultaneously, or of analysing and controlling traffic patterns in a mid-sized city core.
So, er, your 1700 *is* a super system. With that much horsepower at your disp
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Why is this? Because software is bloated and layered beyond reason.
To re-iterate the point I tried to make: current hardware is blistering fast, it's the software that's crap.
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What makes you think i can't run all of that on vista? I've been running vista as a primary OS for about 4 months now (since june).
I don't use the machine to do much photo processing itself. Its mainly my home media center box and file server. I disabled UAC, non needed services, firewall, windows de
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Congrats for unplugging btw. I threw my tv out 5 years ago and since bought a house, started a software company and learned German. Had to get another one though since I also go a new girlfriend
Re:Vista (Score:4, Insightful)
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Not only does it do the media center extender but when my wife is watching tv i can go into another room to
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The problem is... (Score:5, Interesting)
(Note: I only had it on my computer for about a day before switching to Ubuntu, which can actually use my sound card. Vista doesn't let you use any unsigned drivers, and Creative's 64-bit Vista drivers are beta and -- guess what? -- not yet signed.)
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I've seen the new control panel. I've heard about the code base. I've got a friend working at Microsoft who tells me about the stability, etc. You drop the average business user (my mom, for example) into Vista for a week and ask what's different, and they'll tell you about the UI.
B
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Really? I want to know which will do that AND run software appropriate to my needs with minimal hassle. But hey, each to their own.
Ah, but you miss his point (Score:2)
Re:Painfully Subjective Review (Score:5, Informative)
Here are some subjective comments from someone who operates two laptops - a ThinkPad running FreeBSD and a PowerBook running OS X - which I hope will answer your questions on the Os X side.
- Aqua is fast. All windows are buffered, and so dragging them around only causes a small CPU spike. This was bigger before Quartz Extreme, because it was all handled on the CPU. Now it's done on the GPU, and even my old S3 ViRGE could handle compositing opaque textures easily (the shadows around the edges, and any transparent windows require a little more power, but not too much).
- Aqua is quite memory intensive. A moderate size window is likely to require about a 3MB buffer. Assuming it's double buffered, guess 4MB (we'll allow for some smaller windows in the average). Now multiply that by the number of windows you have. You're looking at a lot of memory just for this. I don't know how much of it is VRAM, but on my system it amounts to more than my total VRAM so it can't be all unless they use some form of lossless texture compression.
- Widgets have a big memory footprint. Each one seems to have its own instance of the Javascript runtime (probably for security reasons). 20MB of real memory each seems a good approximation. Invoking the dashboard after doing other memory intensive things will cause a lot of swapping.
Widgets, I could easily live without. There doesn't seem much point in having them written in Javascript other than buzzword compliance. Let me write them in a language that doesn't require a hefty runtime (or, at least, one where the runtime overhead can be shared more efficiently), and I might change my mind.Aqua, however, is worth the cost. Memory is cheap; this machine has 1.5GB in it, which is slightly more than I actually need (it struggles a bit with 1GB, I have some spare in 1.5GB), and it's a couple of years old. If the cost of a more responsive UI is more RAM, I'll pay it. When compositing support stabilises in x.org, I'll probably enable it there as well.
More bugs? Hard to quantify. I've encountered bugs in Quartz (a lot in Quartz 2D Extreme, which is why it's not enabled by default in spite of being faster), and I've encountered bugs in x.org. In a purely hand waving manner, I would say I've encountered more bugs in Quartz, but more serious bugs in x.org, so it probably evens out in the end.
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I quite like using OS X, but I have been very disappointed with its performance, even on relatively fast machines like my mum's G5 iMac, dual-processor G5 PowerMacs and Core Duo Minis (although my Mini is memory constrained with only 512MB). On my 1Ghz/768MB iBook, it's frustratingly slow to use more than one app at a time (and even the one can get chunky).
Not enough memory.
Just like Aero, Aqua is a huge memory hog. I'm happy to pay for additional memory as part of the "OS X premium," but the frustrati
Re:Painfully Subjective Review (Score:4, Informative)
Apple users and Windows users alike agree that the Finder is a huge steaming pile of crap that should have been completely overhauled a few versions back. It's not multithreaded, it isn't particularly elegant, and hasn't really evolved much since the OS 7 days (yikes!).
If you're performing an operation within the Finder that hits some sort of bottleneck (ie. a slow network link, unresponsive storage device, etc.), the entire system grinds to a halt. Likewise, the Finder performs comprably on my 450mhz G4 from 7 years ago as it does on my Core Duo Mini.
Aqua itself is pretty snappy. If you're interacting with applications directly (and not the finder), the system is fast and responsive provided that there's enough RAM. The 7-year old G4 still runs all the day-to-day software I use regularly just fine. There's a bit of a lag for graphical stuff like Expose or drawing long menus, but I suppose that you could attribute that to the 7-year old graphics card. Mind you, this is a computer that shipped with MacOS 8.6 on it when it was new. The latest version of Final Cut Pro runs unbelievably fast on it, with almost no UI lag. Rendering is a different story, but of course, that's to be expected.
I'll agree that Windows is probably the "snappier" of the two operating systems when running a well-equipped system, although this would appear to be due to a single software bottleneck (the finder). Apple, however, has done an incredibly admirable job of supporting their old hardware with new software releases. Try running XP (or Vista if you're feeling masochistic) on a 500mhz Pentium.
Finding the "best" is subjective, too. (Score:3, Insightful)
I'll just out and say it -- Ken Mingis is just looking for bells & whistles. He's not in search of the 'best' operating system,
You are correct, however the implication that looking for the "best" OS would have been less subjective is laughable. Any search for the "best" operating system is inherently subjective, because "best" is a totally subjective criteria.
Any time I see a review where someone is looking for the 'best' anything, where two solutions exist, is not going to be
Re:Painfully Subjective Review (Score:5, Informative)
Hmmmm... Gadgets and widgets. What's that line about imitation being the sincerest form of flattery?...
I'm so tired of hearing this. I'm not disputing that Microsoft took some good ideas from OSX for Vista, but one thing needs clarified. "Widgets" didn't originate in Mac OSX. I was using Konfabulator (now owned by Yahoo) Widgets in both Windows and OSX before 'Widgets" were part of the OS in either.
Seems like I was using gdesklets (more widgets) in Gnome before OSX introduced their Widgets, too.
Since the OSX Widgets are so similar to the pre-existing Konfabulator Widgets (and even share the same name) I guess I just assumed that Apple licensed the Konfabulator software (though I don't know that, it was just an assumption).
I'm not a fanboy of either OSX or Windows, so please don't take this as that sort of slam. I don't have a problem with people noting which ideas have been obviously copied, I just hate to see incorrect statements repeated over and over.
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The first place I saw widgets were in the NeXTStep OS, circa 1993. Mac OS X was not the originator, but it's what popularized it.
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(almost) Every idea works off of previous ones.
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So the more things change, ...
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I am sure I will be labeled as a Mac fan-boy since no one could possible legitimately like a Mac, as opposed to windows, and it must be some form of brian washing.
Re:Painfully Subjective Review (Score:5, Interesting)
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http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=125465655
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As opposed to Microsoft's long-standing campaign of claiming everything it did as "innovative" despite various degrees of simularities to other-than-Microsoft examples.
Pot. Kettle. Black. Spiral spin.
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And 'cause he's a Windows user, so he's not going to include a review of the seven anti-virus and firewall programs he needs to patch the gaping security holes in the system. Nor will he mention the seven hours it took to get his digital
Well... (Score:5, Funny)
I think it goes something like "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"
Re:Well... (Score:5, Funny)
I think it goes something like "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"
Re:Well... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Well... (Score:5, Interesting)
The hilarious phrase repeats over and over (Score:2)
Tell me again guys, just which OS it is that prevented me from having full control of my PC, and which company developed, sold, and provided weekly security patches for that OS? Hmmm... could it be... satan? (jk)
This is the reason that I switched to a Powerbook in February this year, and replaced my second PC with a Mac mini in
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Well, as far as I'm concerned, both UIs can just go suck my... whatever. I don't like either of them. Vista's UI is just more of the sameoldsameold slapped on top of an OS I prefer to shun, and Aqua (as distinct from OS X, which seems pretty good at its job) is an irritating pain to use.
Although I do own a (now aged but nonetheless functional) iBook G4 in addition to my desktop and server machines, I prefer to run Linux on it with Gnome as my UI of choice.
Missing out on the real features... (Score:5, Informative)
The new gui is just a fraction of what Vista offers and i'm amazed at home many people praise it or deteste it based on that single aspect alone.
UAC annoying? Not really, it finally juts alerts you to a change that affects your system as a whole. UAC used to be MUCH more annoying on previous betas but really is a non issue for most people on 5728 or higher because once your running there really isn't much you need to change and being alerted to changes that can impact your system is a good thing.
It takes 2 seconds to disable it if you don't like it. Windows R, msconfig, disable UAC, reboot.
Re:Missing out on the real features... (Score:4, Funny)
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You said enough at "Windows are a misconfiguration".
reboot? (Score:2, Insightful)
It reboots in 2 seconds? Amazing. It'd be even faster if Microsoft could figure out how to make an OS that allows you to modify a configuration without requiring a reboot. Everyone else seems to have figured it out.
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1) Eye Candy
2) Somewhat more secure
3) Improved backup facilities
4) "We unbroke the XP search facility"
"Plus we copied a lot of the features in FireFox and added some DRM, which will help prevent people copying your music/video/porn collection. Including you."
And this is worth 350 bucks or 200 quid?
Justin.
It's the GUI that will sell 80%... (Score:2)
It's Windows and it costs a lot.
The average Windows user isn't caring about or using what XP TRULY does different than 98SE except it looks better.
Re:It's the GUI that will sell 80%... (Score:4, Interesting)
That's not true. What I heard more than anything else from the people using XP when it was new was that it wasn't crashing all the time and didn't need rebooting so often. (Of course, all that is true of 2000 as well, but these people were upgrading from 98.) Looks came in about third; stability was what experienced Windows people talked about the most. Believe me, I remember it well, as I was considering upgrading from 98 then myself as I was sick of its instability and everyone encouraged me to, but then I upgraded to 2000 -- after which, my response was, meh, cutesy interface, so what.
Nevertheless, we wound up getting XP early this year because there are a few high-powered games that require XP that my husband just had to have *rolleyes*. (I mainly use the computer for graphics & picture editing; imagine my surprise when I found that some of my favorite apps work better with 2000 than XP, even though those apps came out after XP!) But that brings up another point in the anti-Vista argument -- look how long it was after XP came out that there were XP-only games from game companies besides MS itself. People say only Vista will have DX10, but any game company would have to be out of their minds to trade the XP user base for the new Vista user base. And frankly, posts you see on every forum show how little interest there is in Vista; it's not justRe: (Score:2)
People rate the quality of a new road solely on the smooth pothole-free surface they encounter when the construction trucks finally leave. They don't know about, are not curious about, and don't want to be curious about the improved fiber trunks, water reclamation system, ice resistant tarmac, or wear-resistant striping polymers. This is really pretty much th
Re:Missing out on the real features... (Score:5, Funny)
Good thing that this particular feature remains unchanged.
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The home directory structre has existed in OS's long before OS X even existed. Not sure about the rest of your points as they seem really, really, really miniscule to base your entire OS views on. If you want to really see vista shine quite using the old stuff and try the new stuff. Computer Management - right click on Computer, Click Manage and give that a shot.
There are some new tools in seperate betas that really simplify management even more than what this does but i'm not sure if they will be in
Re:Missing out on the real features... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Missing out on the real features... (Score:4, Insightful)
a) it's quite a lot to type
b) it contains those embedded spaces that can be troublesome for the CLI and some older apps
Given that they wanted to change it, what else would you call it? And at the end of the day, does it matter that it's the same on OS X?
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I'd argue that yes -- yes it does. But perhaps not for quite the reasons some might expect.
Microsoft has long been about doing things ever so slightly differently in order to maintain a firm grip on platform lock-in as much as possible. They have done a lot of work over the years to try to mould user expectations in order to make it harder for them to move from Widows
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Come again? The services "UI" is services.msc - has been for ages.
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Re:Missing out on the real features... (Score:5, Informative)
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Desktop Accessories were a hack to get around that fact that pre-System 7, Mac OS was a single-tasking system. With OS 7, Mac OS because a true multi-tasking system (albeit, cooperatively), so they could do away with Desktop Accessories.
That being said, DOS had TSRs (terminate and stay resident) programs that acted like accessories. One could argue that Desktop Accessories were merely the GUI version of TSRs (I don't know which c
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MS just never wanted to sell NT to consumers until Win2000, and to a greater extent, XP.
-Z
Old Arguments. (Score:5, Insightful)
Flip3D is aesthetic? (Score:5, Interesting)
Ken, are you freaking kidding? Expose simply looks and behaves so much more efficiently and aesthetically. Try Flip3D when you have 20 windows open, and you'll get an obscured stack of windows that you have to travel through one by one, including the desktop (weirdly, Flip3D puts the desktop in there as a window too). In addition, there's no need to "cycle" through the windows in Expose, because it displays all windows at once. Flip3D is essentially a completely useless tech demo that's not that impressive. Flip3D doesn't win on anything.
Re:Flip3D is aesthetic? (Score:4, Insightful)
Very true. With a button press (or mouse squeeze on my desktop), I can see all the windows at once. So I'm a button press and a click (or a squeeze and a click) away from anything. However, with Flip3D, I'm a button press, a bunch of scrolling, and a click away from anything.
Also, Exposé is also useful if I need to see both windows at once, like if I'm typing something based on something I'm reading (summarizing news articles in my case) or if I need to compare 2 or more images for some reason.
Also, Exposé runs fine on a 1.33 GHz G4 with 32 MB VRAM (although most OS X eye candy like 64 MB VRAM), while Flip 3D will require 64MB or, more likely, 128MB VRAM.
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In all fairness, try the same thing in Exposé. Depending on your resolution, you will likely have to mouse over each window to get the title bar text as a description (which may not even tell you much) to get any idea what the window contains. I love Exposé, but I rarely ever have to use it with 20 windows open, maybe 10 to 15 max and even then it gets a bit sketchy. I
Aqua, Aero, Terra, Pyro? (Score:3, Funny)
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Re:Aqua, Aero, Terra, Pyro? (Score:5, Informative)
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Ubuntu will probably ship a GUI called 'Quintessence' as soon as they catch on.
J.
SUSE does it better (Score:2, Interesting)
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While many of the XGL eye candy is cool looking, in the end it hasn't made me any more (or less) productive, but it does catch the eyes of people (and gives them back thank you) and most people are either surprised or confused when I tell them it is linux and not window
UI ain't everything (Score:3, Interesting)
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End the madness! (Score:5, Insightful)
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Well, for me, it's both. I use Linux partly because I love the power it gives me (which is in itself a political statement, I guess), and partly because of the freedom it gives me (which is definitely a political statement).
I stopped using Microsoft Windows in 1992, when I started using OS/2; and then I stopped using OS/2 in 1993, when I discovered Linux. I stopped using MS-Windows because of the DR-DOS situation, which was just one piece in a long line of
Security nags (Score:5, Insightful)
Double plagarism doesnt count (Score:2, Insightful)
Apple fanbois dont get to complain about this one.
All MS did was copy Apples copying. Now admittedly, there are plenty of legitimant copyjobs going back and forth between both companies, but this isnt one of them.
=)
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*sigh*
I guess you've never heard of Desk Accessories [wikipedia.org], have you?
Hint, they were included with the very first Macintosh.
But, Gruber [daringfireball.net] says it best:
"Bullshit. Dashboard is not a rip-off of Konfabulator. Yes, they are doing very much the same thing. But what it is that they're doing was not an original idea to Konfabulator. The scope of a "widget" is very much the modern-day equivalent of a desk accessory."
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Desk accessories were a hack to workaround the lack of multitasking in early versions of Mac OS. See MultiFinder [wikipedia.org].
Apple Widgets are a knockoff of Konfabulator because Apple borrowed the idea of writing little desktop applications in Javascript.
So Vista can look and act like OsX... (Score:4, Interesting)
I am a windows user (yes, I know I will be shuned for addmitting this), and my preffered OS is Win2K (it works for what I want it to, and that is primarily games).
Up untill recently I just ignore anytihng about windows that is not Win2K (I admit I have to use XP at work, but I have done everytihng I can to make it look and act like 2K). However, with more and more mention of games that will be "vista exclusives" I am starting to wory that I will eventualy actualy HAVE to switch (I stuck with DOS untill I had to use windows for games, then with 3.11 till I had to "upgrade" to 95 for games).
So for those that have been ussing Vista, Can you strip out all this silly extra garbage and make Vista look and act like 2K?
Can I make all the gadgets/widgets/whatever they are called quickly disapear and not waste CPU cycles?
Can I turn off all the bubbles and colouring and effects?
Can I make everything flat? (I like sharp edges, one of my largest dislikes about OSX/XP/others is this urge to make defaults rounded and pretty looking)
Can I make the colour scheames nice and simple? (a solid blue title bar?)
yup
(btw, a quick link to all this info that I have probably missed would be highely apreciated).
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Gadgets and Widgets huh? (Score:3)
I used to feel bad for the Konfabulator team until they were bought by Yahoo- they finally got the attention they deserved.
UGh (Score:2)
Newb (Score:3, Informative)
Whaddaya mean, "now"? To quote someone's sig, if I yell "Frog blast the vent core!", is Ken going to duck and cover, or will it be a whole cow-oncoming train thing? I'm strongly betting on the latter. We've had command- (and yes, it's "command", dammit, not "apple") tab since, what, System 8? The people who pass for Mac fans these days....
Productivity nitwit (Score:3, Informative)
Both do pretty much the same thing; Vista's method wins on aesthetics.
It may win on aesthetics, but that's ALL it wins on. Okay quick example here... this is early in the morning and I've barely begun to work at ALL, but I've already got Mail open, one email being written, 1 finder window, iTunes and 8 movies open in QT. (Gotta check last night's compressions in the morning) So that's 12 windows open here... not really that much but, let's say I want to go right back to the email. I can either Apple-Tab (4 times in this case) or I can hit F9 for all window Expose and them simply click it.
Now compare that to Flip 3D. I'm gonna flip through my ROLODEX? From all the videos I saw it appeared each window shows up separately(Thanks you spell check) so I would actually have to hit the flip key 12 times here? How is that better? It's not. Expose is O(1), Flip 3D is O(N). They definitely do NOT do the same thing, one shows you all your windows, the other buries them.
Here's how I think it went down. Rumors have been around for years about Apple's "Piles" and how they were going to be the next generation file system interface. Microsoft thinks they know what Apple's next big secret is, so they try to get a jump on them and release it first. Whoops... fooled you, "Piles" are actually part of "Stacks" and the light table mode in Aperture... now THAT is useful! (Check out Compare and Select videos 2 and 4 here. [apple.com]) Good thing they got rid of that stupid code name "Piles" :-)
Yawn - Another Mac fanboy claiming Apple invented (Score:3, Interesting)
And the "evidence" cited to prove that MS copied Apple is so minor and trivial. I mean things like "Apple's UI is called Aqua. Microsoft calls its interface Aero. Hmmmm." What, does Apple have a trademark on four letter words beginning with 'A' now? And it's not like the user gives a damn what the UI is called anyway. The other things this guy cites are that close/resize buttons glow when the mouse hovers over them and Aero has photorealistic icons that scale nicely, etc. Oh really? Well, whoop-de-doo!! I guess any OS that incorporates good looking icons is stepping on Apple's toes, right? *yawn*
And what's all this talk that Aero copies from Aqua anyway? I've been using OSX since 10.0, and I've seen Aero. Regardless of whetehr a few things are similar, the overall look and feel are not alike at all.
And this is where this guy's arrogance really kicks in: Huh? Why, just because and Jobs says so? Give me a break.
fuddoesnotmeanwhatyouthink (on fud/notfud) (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Flip is a matter of opinion (Score:5, Funny)
It's just there to get you in the mood. You know, if you're already depressed, then the first crash or 0day won't hurt so much.
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Here's how I see it: Let people buy the new Macs because they can run Windos. Once they've seen the two in a direct comparison (running on the same machine), they'll appreciate OSX. Then they'll love it. Then they'll start to worship it. Then they'll wipe t
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Re:Despite the proof... (Score:5, Funny)
Mac: Hi, I'm a Mac. Hey, what do you have there?
PC: Oh, just some games.
Mac: Oh neat. Can I play too?
PC: No.
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You don't know how many people said that about Win2k when XP was released.
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In that respect, I agree completely with him.
Frankly, his review interested me more than the plethora of soon-to-come, objective reviews filled with benchmarks will.
I already own and use a Macbook Pro, and I was thinking about setting it up to dual-boot into
"Vista's method wins" Oh yeah, that's bias. (Score:4, Funny)