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Apple Admits to Occasional Excessive Work Hours
Posted by
Zonk
on Sat Aug 19, 2006 03:30 AM
from the bad-apple dept.
from the bad-apple dept.
rev_media writes "After Apple's release of a report on the labor conditions in their Chinese factories, many took issue with the deliberately vague wording used in the statement. The BBC is now reporting that Apple has admitted to 'excessive' working hours in some locations, and they would be ensuring that a 'normal' 60-hour work week will be adhered to from now on." From that article: "'We found no instances of forced overtime and employees confirmed in interviews that they could decline overtime requests without penalty,' said Apple in a statement. The firm said there were 'overtime limit exceptions in unusual circumstances' and that it supported a healthy work-life balance. But it did not specify what the triggers for 'unusual circumstances' were and what upper limit it set on working hours. Mr Kuczkiewicz said Apple had not asked workers what they preferred - a decent wage or minimum wage and overtime."
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Interesting, but ... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Interesting, but ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Do Asian people work harder because they have a much higher work ethic than Westerners, or do they have a much higher work ethic because the only jobs available for them are ones in which they have to work insane amounts of hours with little pay in order to provide Americans with luxury items (such as iPods)?
Parent
Re:Interesting, but ... (Score:5, Insightful)
I just want to point out that you're offering a misleading frame of two alternatives -- strong work ethic as innate character or third-world conditions. It's actually more like the asian culture, or the asian spirit that forges this sort of hard working mentality. However, it's probably true that the poverty, massive lower-class (farmer population) and the dire living conditions select for the dilligent. Then, that sort of mentality is drilled into descendants.
An example of cultural effect would be Japan: Japanese salary men don't live in conditions anywhere near third-world nations; nor are they exploited by first-world nations. Their working hours are legendary, just like their suicide rates. I've heard that it comes from their historical roots in the samurai, always chasing for perfection..
The hard-working stereotype of oriental asians in the West is also explainable by the fact that immigrants or visitors (like students) to the West are only a specific subset of the asian population. Immigrants are usually middle-class or higher, with well-educated parents who likely came through with solid work ethics in their earlier life. Foreign asian students who go over to Canadian/US universities are usually rather bright (or very rich). As a result, the stereotype conceived is probably not at all a close representative of the general asian population.
Parent
Re:Interesting, but ... (Score:5, Informative)
I live in Hong Kong, I've visited Chinese factories. There is nothing about "work ethic" as perhaps practised by Chinese immigrants trying to get ahead. Chinese factories are the prototypical sweatshops; many would easily pass for Dickensian "Satanic mills". When there's a deadline, the staff are told they have compulsory, unpaid overtime. The doors are often locked. (There have been many tragedies when fires break out and the exits are all locked.) Wages are often withheld. Troublemakers (eg, union organisers) may be arrested by police or just beaten up.
As a high-schooler, that concept is one of the most frequently repeated ones in my [predominantly Asian] high school.
Thank your parents for your opportunity. Few Chinese have your luck.
Parent
Re:Interesting, but ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Most people intuitively know this. Working *too* much is a personality disorder. The fact that you see it in
Chinese-American culture does not necessarily mean it is inborn in the Chinese race.
What I am getting at is that you are racist (even if it's your own race) if you think this is OK due to the fact that they are Chinese. The fact that people work this hard should not be something to be proud of, and should not have to be justified.
Parent
Re:Interesting, but ... (Score:5, Interesting)
Not something to be proud of? Here's an example for you; a man owns a store about a block away from my house. He's Korean and since the store belongs to his family, the only employees are himself, his wife and his daughter. The store stays open 24 hours a day, meaning they each have to work an 8 hour shift every day of the week (or, more likely, someone has to work quite a bit more than that).
I had a conversation with him about a month ago about how hard I thought this must be, but he disagreed. He was terribly proud of how his whole family banded together to run the store and work such ridiculous hours in order to keep it going. His 16 year old daughter (a high school student) spent every day working, as well as studying and they had nothing but adoration and pride for her.
Where are you from that tremendous work ethic is not something to be admired?
Parent
Re:Interesting, but ... (Score:5, Insightful)
You can only get ripped off by companies so much before you start doing the minimum necessary to keep the job.
Parent
In china (Score:5, Interesting)
I've noticed in the factory here you are expected to work overtime not by your boss but by your peers. It is common to see most people work 1 or 2 hours overtime, sometimes until 9pm. I end up feeling guilty if I leave at the offical time (5pm) because I am normally the only one to do so.
But you've got to take into account the population density and lack of social security, the wages here aren't the best, and if you don't perform well enough you can easily get replaced, so you've got to make the most of what you get, due to this it's become the cultural behaviour.
Though wide differences between wages is common here, the IT supervisor can earn more than 10 times than the IT staff even though his work isn't that much difficult.
60 hours a week normal in the military (Score:4, Interesting)
It is what these people *need* (Score:5, Insightful)
If instead your number one concern is that your family doesn't starve, or making enough money to emmigrate from the oppressive regime in which you live, and the amount of money you make is proportionate to the number of hours you work, you would generally like to work as many hours as humanly possible. I knew at least one guy (in America) who used pull over a hundred hours a week working at an oil rig. It was quite dangerous to boot, but his reason for doing it was just the extra padding in his bank account, not because he had an emaciated wife and toddler back at home.
The last thing people in developing nations need is you telling them that they can't have a job except at 10 bucks an hour, or that they can't work for more than 40 hours a week, or that it's only legal for companies to come in and provide them with a way of obtaining food, medicine, and education (i.e. money) if they also provide full health care, dental, and college tuition for the kids.
I'm not saying to give companies free reign. Some things are clearly morally despicable. But frankly speaking, you are not helping these people by being indignant when they are not afforded the same accomodations that you are. That is the one asset they have that allows them to compete for jobs against Joe Westerner (whose parents could afford to get him quality education and is the preferable employee at comparable wages).
Don't let corporations get away with complete crap, but please don't have people starve for the sake of your armchair idealism either.
Re:It is what these people *need* (Score:5, Insightful)
It's the new White Man's Burden, borne stoicly by people who have never had to actually fend for themselves a single day in their lives.
KFG
Parent
Re:It is what these people *need* (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:It is what these people *need* (Score:4, Interesting)
You've never lived as a hunter-gatherer. I have. Yes, it's true that they actually have much more leisure time than people in industrial nations. What you may not realize is that their leisure time is typically spent productively. Idle hands are the devil's plaything.
We spin and weave for a hobby. They spin and weave because if they don't they go naked. It is not uncommon to see women spinning while walking over to a neighbor's house.
The best living I've ever had though was in a semihunter gatherer society, but with just enough independent money that I didn't have to go out in the fishing boats. Wealth is having more people working for you than you have to work for; and that's the way it is. "Western" wealth is built entirely on large groups of people working for it while providing comparitively little back.
Of course the fishermen, while going out and laboring, not to mention risking their lives, thought about what they were doing as mainly a social event, getting together with the guys and doing "guy things." Not "work."
But if you wish to lift them up to you, I'm afraid you'll have to lower yourself to reachability.
It seems to me that we may only really be "wired" to work, say, 20 hours per week on a sustained basis.
Sounds like a bit of an overworked hell to me really, if by "work" you mean "job." If by "work" you mean something like "directed activity" I'd go out of my fucking skull with bordom. I "work" more than that for entertainment.
KFG
Parent
Good Effort (Score:4, Insightful)
Considering that many other products that people purchase from china are made from labour which has not be placed under the same workers-rights rigor that apple outlays in their vendor contract, this is a good case of a global company doing what they can to ensure adequet working standards in a country that is rife with human exploitation. You can almost decide with certainty that something you own has been produced as a result of human labour exploitation, occurances often go by without the knowledge of the even the staff member; There is a lot of difficulty in ensuring proper work practices in these mega factories (many staff demand excessive overtime hours to get ahead of the rat race.) Take for example that this factory assembles iPods, there is no way of knowing, without investigation, if the screens being used in the assembly of the iPods are made in another factory where labour issues are more common.
So while others may pick at Apple's summary report for leaving areas grey, I still feel this is by far a more advanced effort in ensuring factory workers rights than what many other companies do. (Particularly the fashion and small parts industries.)
+60hr work/wk on apple products (Score:4, Funny)
oh they meant building them
well that is almost as bad
History as an RTS (Score:5, Insightful)
No one gets to start off with a modern industrial complex and a space program. You start out with a few poor villagers. Then, those villagers work at building up a Civilization, stopping at points which involve a fair amount of labor.
There was a time when the USA was also a dumping ground for cheap labor. Our grandparents through great-great-grandparents worked very hard at dirty jobs for long hours.
Then someone got the "Organized Labor", "Industrial Revolution", "Clean Air Act" upgrades. Those laid the groundwork for the "40-hr Work Week", "Military-Industrial Complex" and "Civic Green Space" upgrades. That, in turn, unlocked "Space Program", which allowed us to advance our Civilization to the Information Age.
The US has managed to do a pretty good job assembling a Rush strategy to catch up to civs that got a headstart on us.
China is turtling right now....give it time, it'll get its upgrades.
Re:60 hours = normal (Score:5, Insightful)
From another point, these people are probably building together your precision apple hardware. One might wonder why apple has no reputation for the reliability of its hardware.
Actually this reminds me of the story I heard from a factory owner that moved from korea to china. Labour there is cheap, but the education was a bit lower, and the people worked sloppier (no wonder, how is your work concentration after 10 hours). In the end he needed 3 times the amount of employees and had a doubled amount of faulty products that had to be discarded before leaving the factory.
The solution to this is higher education of the chinese people, which is luckily for them hapenning (although the amount of places in university is till lower than the amount of people that want and could get in). But in the end, this will mean they get more expensive as employees and the benefit of outsourcing to china will be much smaller. By that time Chinese companies will probably be able to get a big part of the marketshare in the world, leaving the original companies in troubles. I won't mind too much as long as I can still buy quality products in stead of crap, no matter where it's made.
A similar thing happened to Ireland. Labour there was very cheap about a decade ago. IT and car companies went there (AMD, some memory factory etc.) and in due time, wages went up. Now, the movement is more towards eastern europe, but won't be a matter of time before the same will happen there.
I don't oppose all this outsourcing when it comes to better living conditions for the people in countries who can use the improvement. What I do oppose is the fact that products made by outsourcing are still as expensive as before, and the gain goes only to a very small point of people. Not to the costumers, not to the employees, but to management and stockholders. This will eventually widen the gap between poor and rich worldwide, which is not something we need at the moment.
Parent
Re:60 hours = normal (Score:5, Insightful)
We don't know what Apple considers normal. We know that Apple is willing to interfere with the business of a supplier if that supplier makes it workforce work more than 60 hours a week. Next time you have to go to a hospital, ask the doctor who is treating you how many hours a week he or she is working, just to get a bit of perspective. Or maybe you have a look on the internet how many hours employees at EA have been working to supply you with the latest video games.
Most importantly, instead of reading the BBC page (or without bothering to read anything), go to the Apple website where you find Apple's report that this is all based on: You will find that the highest number of complaints by employees is against the fact that sometimes there isn't enough overtime!
Parent
Re:60 hours = normal (Score:4, Insightful)
No, quite untrue. Developed countries working hours have increased markedly in the last 50 years. The average hunter-gatherer had to work maybe 20 hours a week to have a comfortable lifestyle. However, third-world labourers get both long hours and low pay as their countries industrialise, maybe the next generation will get a share of the wealth. Now they're just working harder than their parents and barely surviving.
Parent
Re:60 hours = normal (Score:5, Interesting)
No it doesn't. Yeah, life was tough, but not as bad as you say. I can't give you sources, this is stuff I read years ago, so doubt if you want; but many hunter gatherer societies had a pretty easy time, few diseases because of low population density, healthy diet, and while infant mortality was higher than ours, once past infancy they could expect to live to their 50s. (Better than Russians these days...) But how easy their life was wasn't my major point, it was your assertion than the number of hours worked has always been as high as it is now. That is quite untrue. Even agricutural societies usually had times of heavy work, like harvest or planting, balanced by weeks or months of comparative leisure (unless of course they were drafted by the aristocracy to join an army, build a pyramid, etc).
Parent
Apple are the cause of this particular problem (Score:5, Informative)
It is very unlikely that Apple is unaware of this and this is just exploitation of workers by Apple's subcontractors.
900 million Chinese earn less than USD 300 per year and yes, that is poverty. You cannot live comfortably on that amount in China. No-one wants to work 60 hours per week, but it is not difficult to persuade someone to do that, contrary to the law, if they are very poor. That is why they do it - it has nothing to do with the Asian work ethic.
Apple should be ashamed of itself for participating in this exploitative conduct, and then trying to gloss over it.
Parent
Re:Apple are the cause of this particular problem (Score:5, Insightful)
Everybody knows the China law "usually" doesn't mean anything, the Capitalist around the world build factories to torture the China workers
Someone want Apple in trouble so they magnified Apple, but not only Apple did this, why not stop all the factories but only picky at Apple? Just like bible story in John 8-7: Whichever one of you has committed no sin may throw the first stone at her.
Hypocritical is the word to describe the man releasing this, if he got so much free time, take a look at the Lenovo, Dell, Acer, Asus
Parent
Re:Apple are the cause of this particular problem (Score:5, Insightful)
Ok, perhaps a better example of what you're getting at:
I'm confused. Black guy has no education and can't find anybody willing to pay him even minimum wages. His poor family is starving, and he feels like he is no use to them at all. One day a white guy walks up to him and sees that he looks reasonably strong, and that with a little training he might pay off as a construction worker. However, he doesn't want to invest all kinds of money in training just to have the guy get a job somewhere else. So, he makes the black guy an offer written up on a contract - he will be paid $40,000 in cash in exchange for ownership of his body/mind/labor/etc. He explains that the black guy shouldn't worry about harsh working conditions - it is in the interest of his owner to protect his investment. And, the money would fix his family's problems - $40k is probably more money than the guy would bring home in his entire life the way things are currently going.
But then some oppressive federal agent comes in and says that the 13th amendment prevents this poor black entrepreneur from selling the one asset he has, and solving his family's problems...
Maybe the 13th amendment was passed because allowing people to enter into unrestricted labor contracts had been tried before, and it didn't work.
Parent
Re:Ok look... (Score:5, Insightful)
Agreed. -- WTF!
I have often worked 60 hours a week - and I'm not paid ANY overtime! Yes, I have the choice to NOT work extra hours, but then my job would not get done. And I don't want to hear about "working smarter" or "hiring more people". I'm working as smart as I can and my staff keeps getting cut. We have a 1000+ to 1 computer to technician ratio and "management" thinks that's fine (as long as *they* get fast response). It's bullshit and everyone knows it, but it's reality and it's the job I get paid to do. I could easily get another job, but I like what I'm doing and have decided to stay where I am. I'd be REALLY pissed it some fsking do-gooder tried to tell my employer that I'd be forced to stop working after 40 hours (although overtime would be nice but exempt employees don't get that).
My daughter is saving for college. She works 2, back-to-back, full-time jobs during the summer so that she doesn't have to borrow money to pay for tuition. That's way more than 60 hours a week with NO overtime. She's only 17. I'm not sure if that is legal in my state for someone her age, but they can piss off. It's her choice. She bought her own car, pays her own insurance and manages her social life around her responsibilities. She'd be crushed if she was forced to back off on her hours because some lazy, loser bureaucrat told her she was working too hard. She'd love to be making twice what she's making, but she's only 17 and they don't pay "kids" with few skills much more than minimum wage. So she does what she can and sacrifices her social time to reach her goals. We've talked about what happens when classes starts and she's agreed that studies come first, so she'll quit one of her jobs.
If the workers in China are being mistreated and are FORCED (by their employer) to work more than 40 hours then, yes, I have a problem with that. But if they truly have the option to work AND they get paid overtime for it, let them have it! Has anyone compared their (the "abused Chinese") annual incomes against the other incomes and work hours for others in that area? I'd really like to know. Because if they are working more hours and still making less then there is a problem. However, if they are making proportionally more then SHUT THE FUCK UP and let them work!
I didn't grow up in America. I grew up in a 3rd-world country. The whole mind-set of society there was different back then (and admittedly, much more "primitive"). Where I grew up, you started working in the fields for several hours a day when you turned 7! When you turned 12 you were expected to look for a wife and be working full-time. Turning 12 was the rite-of-passage to adulthood and you got all the responsibilities AND privileges of adulthood. We kids didn't know any different. We looked forward to each phase of life with anticipation. We weren't brought up to expect to "play" until we were 18 and then start our adult life.
Looking back on it from the perspective of a parent raising kids in America, I can see that that culture and those attitudes would never fly here. But I don't see use as being "abused" as kids. I received my first weapon (modified and "safed") when I was 6. I went on my first "hunt" with the men when I was 7 (mostly along to do the "women's work" (read grunt-work) and to learn the ropes) - kind of like an apprenticeship, I guess. When I was 12, I went along as a full-fledged member of the group. There was no "screwing around". I'd been raised my whole life to be responsible. Today, I can't imagine trusting a 12 year old with that kind of responsibility. Of course we don't raise them to be responsible. We raise them to never take responsibility and to expect to have fun until they're "adults".
My point in all this is that it's easy to judge one culture from the perspective of another, and in doing so do great harm to their way of life. There are cases where abuse is really taking place and, when found, it must be dealt with. But c'mon. A 60-hour week, with overtime? I'd take that. At least give me the option.
Parent
Re:DORMITORIES = No sex life and no family life (Score:5, Insightful)
Except for the factory part, it kind of reminds me of the Army.
Parent