Apple Responds to iTunes Spying Allegations 385
daveschroeder writes "According to MacWorld and BoingBoing: 'An Apple spokesman (reliable word has it that it was Steve Jobs himself) told MacWorld that Apple discards the personal information that the iTunes Ministore transmits to Apple while you use iTunes. [...] Apple tells us that the information is not actually being collected. The data sent is used to update the MiniStore and then discarded.' Apple also has a knowledge base article, which apparently was available the day iTunes 6.0.2 was introduced, explaining the MiniStore behavior and how to disable it: 'iTunes sends data about the song selected in your library to the iTunes Music Store to provide relevant recommendations. When the MiniStore is hidden, this data is not sent to the iTunes Music Store.'" The discussion about this topic was fast and furious yesterday.
This is just fud (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:This is just fud (Score:5, Insightful)
Now if iTunes spied on the music you ripped then that might be news, but still not that important. I mean all they'll do is say "people who have Take That mp3s also buy other tasteless crap" etc.
In short, yes, FUD.
Re:This is just fud (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:This is just fud (Score:5, Informative)
But so what? It can be a useful feature. If you don't want it, it's 1 click to turn it off. At which point, no more queries will be made of the Apple store for the artist name. Problem solved.
Re:This is just fud (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:This is just fud (Score:4, Insightful)
This tool looks at what song is currently playing, and suggests possible other albums you might like. It's actually kind of nice, when you want to use it, and does nothing when you don't. Win.
Re:This is just fud (Score:4, Insightful)
I want the spyware to look at what I actually look at, not just what I tell them too. It's far more likely to give me good suggestions that way.
This tool looks at what webpage is currently displayed, and suggests possible other products you might like. It's actually kind of nice, when you want to use it, and does nothing when you don't. Win.
Except that it's enabled by default and doesn't tell you that it's doing it in the first place.
Re:This is just fud (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, Slashdot would be hysterical about it if it was Microsoft, but they are being hysterical about it when it's Apple, so what's your point there?
Re:This is just fud (Score:3, Informative)
You are wrong. And you're an idiot for telling other people to test it when clearly you haven't properly tested this out yourself.
Re:This is just fud (Score:3, Insightful)
Not precisely true... (Score:2)
Re:Not precisely true... (Score:2)
Only becuase you like apple. (Score:5, Insightful)
The fact that Apple is more often viewed as being product and customer centerned than a tyrannical monopoly is the only reason people will defend this kind of activity.
Apple was taking your personal information about your personal music being played on your personal computer and sending it back to themselves. Basic common courtesy dictates you ask people for personal information, you don't take it. The fact Jobs says he's not being malevolent is nice, but doesn't change the fact Apple somehow felt entitled to know what music you're playing on iTunes at any given time.
One dialog box, "Is it ok to send information about the music you're playing so we can better recommend purchases for you?" is all it takes. That one little question makes this a nice features instead of an invasion of privacy.
Re:Only becuase you like apple. (Score:5, Insightful)
Everything we can see from a technical standpoint and a logical standpoint indicates that there is nothing more happening than a custom WebObjects query to update the recommendations section of the MiniStore.
Now, a bunch of people will keep saying "yeah, but how do we *know* they're not keeping it" or "you would be a fool if you thought they *weren't* keeping it, no matter what they say", but the fact is that iTunes is a highly customized, dynamic web browser - nothing more.
Now, you might think ANY time any information is outbound from your computer, that it constitutes "sending" it to someone. I take issue with this, because, again, it implies it's being taken and kept. I think there is a difference, and that intent matters. Apple did not try to hide this [slashdot.org], and while I agree it would have been a good idea to at least ask politely (and give a clear option to decline), I don't think there is any malicious intent here whatsoever.
Re:Only becuase you like apple. (Score:4, Insightful)
Very true. At least here Apple comes out and explains what it is doing and manages to reasure people. What I often hear from Microsoft when something like this happens is either silence or some sort of arrogant remark. Microsoft could deal with their PR battles with a little more grace than they have up to now.
Re:Only becuase you like apple. (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, isn't that a good enough reason to treat them differently or give more doubt benefit than a company who DOES behave like a tyrannical monopoly?
Humans judge most entities they are familiar with based on expectations formed by past experience. If Apple shows a history of not mistreating them or falling short of their expectations, and other companies have, I would fully expect Apple to be cut more slack than a company that HAD failed them.
Perception is reality, by and large. If all you've ever had with, say, Microsoft were good experiences and Apple burned you over and again, you'd be willing to cut MS more slack than Apple if you found they'd engaged in questionable activities.
Do you think people are more forgiving of Apple because they like Apple, or like them because they have few reasons to be skeptical of their motivations?
Re:Only becuase you like apple. (Score:4, Insightful)
If this were windows media player (again - it phoned home when you played DVDs, and was resoundly condemded in many circles) there wouldn't be a person on slashdot without a torch or pitchfork.
I agree wholeheartedly. If you remember the Sony-BMG debacle (who doesn't?), one of the things people were up in arms about was that the software phoned home. People on /., among many others, rightly complained that it sent information back to Sony without the customer's permission. Sony said they didn't keep the information, but people rightly said that it didn't matter if they kept it or not. The problem was that it was sent without our permission. Yes, there were many other aspects to the Sony-BMG fiasco, but this was one of the issues. According to many comments on /., the fact that Apple is doing it seems to make it okay. It is NOT okay. This should have been clarified up front with the default to "don't transfer my information to Apple".
Re:This is just fud (Score:2)
Google has done the same thing with adsense by taking what your searching for and displaying adds relevant to what your looking for.
This will blow over real soon as its not a big deal. If you really care about it, I would suggest disabling the feature or using a product from a company / group that is not trying to
In retrospect ... (Score:5, Insightful)
If you install a piece of software and it starts to gathering information about you, it's called spyware even if there's some magic button combination or option that turns it off. Until it is turned off, it's spyware. I don't understand why the default setting isn't "off" but I guess that was Apple's decision and now they'll catch flack for it.
Re:In retrospect ... (Score:2, Informative)
I think those complaning is in minority, and those in the majority would miss out a feature that actually could be quite handy...
Re:In retrospect ... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:In retrospect ...Hey, Wait a Minute Here (Score:2)
Hey, they already know what you bought from iTunes. Is it even their business what you play otherwise? And without giant warnings of what they're doing? I don't think so.
Since when did you ever think Apple was your friend in the first place?
Re:In retrospect ...Hey, Wait a Minute Here (Score:2, Insightful)
I'm not saying that Apple is my friend or I'm promoting these practices. But if done right, privacy can be ensured and introduce a level of service that can't be had without these information. For example, if a product never gets feedback, then how would the developers know how well it's doing? Similarily, Apple needs
Re:In retrospect ... (Score:3, Insightful)
To get around this, Apple should have popped up a dialog box the first time which says something along the lines of "iTunes can recommend new music based on what you are currently playing. This feature requires that the songs you play are sent to the server. Would you like to turn this feature on?" to which the
Re:In retrospect ... (Score:4, Insightful)
While they are at it, they should put up a notice that using the GET TRACK NAMES feature (on by default) is sending CDDB information about which new CD you just put in your drive.
Oh, and every last web page you visit should ask for permission to see your IP address, so it knows where to send the response to your http request. Of course, it might be kind of tough for them to get the request to reach you...
Re:In retrospect ... (Score:2)
Wah, someone can't collect stats on something that they have NO RIGHT to collect anyway. My movements, purchase habits, etc that are tracked during visits to the iTunes Music *Store* are one thing. My movements, listening habits, etc that could be tracked by their INDEPENDENT player are something else.
People ne
Re:In retrospect ... (Score:2)
Not arguing with you, but I think the idea is that most users will not enable it, and it will be difficult to perform the statistical (as clarified now) data collection and analysis that Apple does.
Absolutely right. Most users wouldn't enable it. Some of them wouldn't enable it because they didn't go looking through options, and some of them wouldn't enable it because it's of no benefit to them.
Automated data collection is rarely for the benefit of users. It's perfectly understandable that people get
Re:In retrospect ... (Score:3, Informative)
there is no automated data collection. there is just click-based searching. get a freaking clue.
bandwidth!? cpu!? you'd have 100 dialogue boxes on every website - "do you want to load our banner image? do you want to load our frame containing menu items? do you want to launch...".
the ministore is a minibrowser where your songs you click on are links to searches for relevant info.
Re:In retrospect ... (Score:3, Informative)
What collection and analysis? From everything I've seen, they collect nothing, but query a server that uses the ITMS data set to retrieve recommendations.
-Ted
Re:In retrospect ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Ever google band information about a band you're listening to? That is more likely to capture data about you than this would.
Now the next question is whether we trust Apple to be true to it's word about this. If they are lying about this, I would be more concerned with them lying, than with any data they would get from my collection.
Personally, I don't have any reason to mistrust them at this point, as even the dark side of any conspiracy theories about this are fairly harmless, in my estimation.
Re:In retrospect ... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:In retrospect ... (Score:5, Insightful)
If they had done that, most people would never have realized that the option exists. If there wasn't a podcast icon on the left side, many people would never have found the option. Better to ask during installation: "iTunes 6.0.2 offers a new option to display recommendations from iTMS matching the music your are playing. For this iTunes has to send the trackname of the current title to iTMS. These informations will only be used to change the MiniStore and be discarded afterwards. Do you want to activate this function [Yes/No]"
Chriss
--
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Re:In retrospect ... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:In retrospect ... (Score:3, Insightful)
No software is "gathering" information about you. Gathering implies storing, and it isn't stored. It's simply a query to the iTMS database for a particular artists tracks.
There's a mania these days about privacy issues, that's going to look as silly as the McCarthy witch hunts or Political Correctness in years to come. The REAL abuses of privacy are in danger of being buried under a pile of complains about things that aren't an is
Re:Make sure you complain (Score:2)
From file menu on iTunes on a Mac:
iTunes > Provide iTunes Feedback
Apple listens so let them know it was an unwelcomed default feature.
Non-issue (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Non-issue (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Non-issue (Score:2)
Re:Non-issue (Score:2)
If the word was reliable... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:If the word was reliable... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:If the word was reliable... (Score:2)
If Steve Jobs is not on record saying that Apple doesn't save private information, if it was only a rumor, then he can't be sued if it turns out that Apple did indeed save private information.
If the people decide to give Apple the benefit of the doubt, it's because they have a reasonable reputation. These kinds of actions (it's spyware wether or not the info is saved) are eroding that reputation however. In the past, corporations could both do bad things and use spi
Re:If the word was reliable... (Score:2)
Re:If the word was reliable... (Score:3, Funny)
Because the Macworld reporter did not store the information, only used it to make recommendations about the MiniStore.
Steve always tells the truth.... (Score:3, Funny)
"We will NOT be releasing a video iPod"........
not actually being collected (Score:5, Insightful)
Release the source of the server app and then we might believe you. We've all heard the "not actually collected" bit many times. Sony first tried to deny this particular privacy invasion in their rootkit, yet later they were caught out. Unique URLs combined with IPs, what more do you need?
Frankly, if I were writing such a service, logging some of the most financially valuable market research you get your hands on is a given. There wouldn't be any debate on the issue, you log it and sell it! And if you are morally sound, you offer it as an opt-on program and be honest about it.
Re:not actually being collected (Score:5, Funny)
Folks post-9/11 America cannot expect due process or privacy. Danger lurks in the shadows and casting a blinding light down the alleys of American pop culture is the only way to find this enemy.
Re:not actually being collected (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:not actually being collected-then turn it off (Score:3, Insightful)
Do you really think they would want to store that much information? Even if they did, if the request does not have any information specific to y
Re:not actually being collected (Score:2)
Damage Control (Score:2)
Re:Damage Control (Score:5, Informative)
This is not "Damage Control". They did make it clear. The knowledge base article [apple.com], available the day iTunes 6.0.2 was release, specifically said:
iTunes sends data about the song selected in your library to the iTunes Music Store to provide relevant recommendations. When the MiniStore is hidden, this data is not sent to the iTunes Music Store.
In addition, the day iTunes 6.0.2 was released, http://www.apple.com/itunes/ [apple.com] said:
Discover Music
Discover new music as you enjoy your collection or import new CDs -- with MiniStore.
and http://www.apple.com/itunes/playlists/ [apple.com] said:
Discover New Music
Looking for some new tunes? Tap into the 2-million-song treasure chest of the iTunes Music Store through the new MiniStore. While you're browsing your own library or importing a new CD, MiniStore appears at the bottom of the iTunes window and shows you other albums from your favorite artists and artists like them. You can even see reviews of these albums plus what other listeners who like this artist purchased -- so you'll never be at a loss for new music to discover. When you're ready to go back to full-screen mode, click an icon and MiniStore tucks away, ready to pop up again later when you want to explore some more.
and
MiniStore
Discover new music as you enjoy your collection or import new CDs with MiniStore -- right from your iTunes library.
Further, the MiniStore actively changing as you click different tracks in iTunes might give a small hint that something is happening.
Now, if you're saying that Apple should have had some kind of a dialog box come up when you first upgraded to and launched iTunes 6.0.2 explaining this and giving a clear option to simply opt to not use the new MiniStore, sure, I'll agree that would have likely been better. But Apple wasn't hiding this, and this isn't damage control, other than the fact that if enough blogs keep (incorrectly) asserting that Apple is "spying" on you, then it isn't long before some mainstream media picks the (incorrect) story up.
Re:Damage Control (Score:2)
Re:Damage Control (Score:2)
Yeah, I always go to the KB when I'm installing new software. Doesn't everybody?
Discover new music as you enjoy your collection or import new CDs -- with MiniStore.
No doubt BabelFish translates that to: This app sends back all the information to Apple on everything you play so that they can guess about what they might be able to sell you next. But they promi
Re:Damage Control (Score:2)
Submitting a story to slashdot hardly requires someone to pick a side. It is merely a solicitation for discussion.
Re:Damage Control (Score:3, Interesting)
Still seems a little fishy (Score:5, Interesting)
That sounds like the amount of data the Google collects daily and has done for months. That sort of information would be a treasure trove to record companies and marketing execs. Apple has said that they are not keeping the data, and I choose to give them the benefit of the doubt here. However, when a weak (or fallacious) argument like the one above is used it gives me pause.
Re:Still seems a little fishy (Score:2)
Re:Still seems a little fishy (Score:2)
nothing new here (Score:4, Insightful)
it's all about tayloring for each customer.
provided Apple is not *sharing* this data with 3rd-parties, I don't find anything wrong with internal data mining.
Re:nothing new here (Score:5, Informative)
For that matter, why does the data need to go to a third party at all? How are they related to the iTMS?
Re:nothing new here (Score:2)
Face it, there is no longer any such thing as privacy. The internet is just the telescreen of 1984, where the powers that be watch you while you watch their programs. [Obigatory quote left out here.] With datamining, cell phone call available from web sites, personal records, etc. for sale, Big Brother Dubya scaning calls, usw. we are all living in houses with open curtains. I guess the only way out of this is to become a Zen monk and live in a cave without internet, phone, or credit cards, but even then
Remember every web browser is spyware too. (Score:3, Insightful)
So browsers are spyware too by the attitude some people are taking here.
In other words defining as spyware is not a black and white picture. It's shades of grey and in this situation I see iTunes as pretty white.
Re:Remember every web browser is spyware too. (Score:2)
Re:Remember every web browser is spyware too. (Score:2)
but if that fails, it is definitely something you can get using a shockwave flash file.
Re:Remember every web browser is spyware too. (Score:2)
Re:Remember every web browser is spyware too. (Score:3, Informative)
Your originating IP address (which the server must get in order to return information to you) is enough to reveal who your ISP is. Every internet connection that isn't proxied through another host will give that information.
Re:Remember every web browser is spyware too. (Score:3, Insightful)
The server does not require Firefox to send information about CPU, Operating system or specific linux distro to a web server to get a page. In fact you could manually set the browser identity to null, and the webserver would happily provide you with a page that will work more than 99% of the time.
So that information is NOT required. It is wanted by the website owners perhaps, but it is NOT required to be
Unreasonable Paranoia (Score:5, Insightful)
If you're this desperately paranoid about the evil corporations knowing what music you listen to, guess what? Apple already does, every time you buy a song through their store, and furthermore they have your real name, credit card number, and address also. You shouldn't be using this service.
This is reality. Time to deal with it.
Let's try the story this way... (Score:5, Insightful)
I think it would be fun to see the reactions to the story now.
I'm outraged!!! (Score:2)
Re:Let's try the story this way... (Score:2)
It pains me to admit it somewhat as a Windows user, but in general, Mac users know more about their computers than the average Windows junkie. Therefore, the former can generally be expected to know what spyware is and what sort of damage it can do, while the latter cannot. This leads one to conclude that the former will care more about spyware in general.
But, the former
Re:Let's try the story this way... (Score:2)
This isnt true. I work Helldesk. With their new push on ipods the mac is selling well to the general populace. I get a ton of windows like calls from mac users now. The questions are just as dumb/simple/inane and almost at the same rate and frequency as the windows users now.
Sorry but your statement may have been true years ago but not today.
Market trumps regulations, go figure (Score:4, Interesting)
Now that we have near perfect instantaneous group communication, we've opened the doorway to not needing anything but consumer power to control companies, even the biggest companies such as Apple.
If a company performs some act -- faithfully or greedily -- that consumers don't like, you can expect the fact to be released where in the past it might have been kept secret (the media isn't very pro-consumer). We wonder why newspapers and magazines are dying -- they have advertisers to keep happy. The web lets everyone get information out that is important to them, and if enough people have a problem with a company, that negative information will gain steam quickly.
Apple did try to hedge against this outcry, as the article says, by providing the facts for those interested in them. Should Apple have performed an opt-in program rather than an opt-out? Yes. Do we need laws and regulations to force them? No -- they'll learn from this situation.
If Apple doesn't learn a lesson from consumer fallout, someone else will. There are already iTunes replacement programs out there -- provided out of voluntary methods (capitalism) rather than coercive methods (mercantilism and socialism).
Be glad that we have the Internet, it will soon allow us to back out of all the pro-corporation regulations that we're paying good tax dollars to enforce.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Market trumps regulations, go figure (Score:3, Insightful)
Which is why Apple didn't have any reason to make it opt-out. They figured they could better provide for their customers (99.9%) by putting everyone in the program, especially since they disclosed it at the time of release.
Nothing was sold, nothing was kept. What's the problem, right?
disable the store completely (Score:2)
Weasel words... (Score:2)
Either they use the information or they don't. How about a clear statement: "we don't collect information from users without their explicit permission".
If a company is going to collect information they should be up front about it--and preferable make in an opt-in rather than a hidden opt-out choice or buried deeply in a license.
It's a little concerning that Apple may or may not know what I'm listening to. If the information is saved (or available to
stupid overeactions (Score:5, Insightful)
Spies work in secret. So does SPYware.
iTunes is neither malware nor spyware, and the people who claim it is are paranoid jackasses.
iTunes is doing this right in front of your face. I adamantly believe Apple should have included at least a dialog box at first launch of iTunes 6.02 informing users about the ministore, but I hardly consider it a breach of any sort of ethical barrier. The comparison to Gmail seem to be on the money... it's pretty much the same thing.
As sort of an aside, it's not a terrible feature, and it's not intrusive or nagging when you don't want it hanging around. I would have definitely preferred that there was at least a notification though.
Re:stupid overeactions (Score:3, Insightful)
In order for this to be not classified as spyware, it should be opt-in.
Instead, Apple chose profit and spying over customer protection and good faith.
Awfully vague reassurances. (Score:2)
iTunes EULA (Score:2, Interesting)
It's a bit funny that the iTunes software agreement explicitly states that Gracenote CDDB uses a session id for tracking, while they omit the same information for the iTunes Music Store.
Privacy Policy (Score:2, Troll)
Apple may update its privacy policy from time to time. When we change the policy in a material way a notice will be posted on our website along with the updated privacy policy.
So today they say they will not collect it. Tomorrow, as part of a RIAA lawsuit, they must collect and reveal the information. Further, the RIAA will mak
This WAS a big deal. (Score:2, Insightful)
Imagine if Sony's Connect player was upgraded and did this kind of thing, by default, and didn't mention a word about it? There would've been plans made to burn the CEOs at the stake and public bulldozings of Sony equipment. Of course, no one cares about Sony Connect so maybe that wasn't the best example.
The fact is, Apple is a corporation. They don't care about you. They don't come over and f
Re:This WAS a big deal. (Score:4, Insightful)
When Apple updated iTunes software, they included an explanation of this new behavior in their FAQ.
There are only two pieces of news
If you are using a service, RTFM and then go read the FAQ. Bonus advice: turn off auto-updating on non-critical applications.
Gotta'ta Believe (Score:2)
Got to believe it now, since Steve himself might have said it.
Wouldn't want to think there could ever be logs of illegal MP3's being played that the RIAA could subpoena.
Re:Gotta'ta Believe (Score:2)
And the same people ... (Score:2, Interesting)
hoping for a sequel (Score:3, Funny)
And today you were hoping they would be 2 Fast 2 Furious?
A sort of commentary sequel, if you will? Hmmmm?
For those in the Apple vs. Microsoft camp (Score:2)
OK, so Apple had a hand up where they can know personal info but MS could know the same if there was a passport account with personal info (formerly know as MS Wallet) tied with Media Player.
I think Apple came clean about this as they posted the update because of the MS fiasco nonetheless.
They should do it right if they are doing it (Score:3, Insightful)
I turned off the service because I was tired of being told that I would like Will Smith's "Switch". This is just blatant promotion as I haven't bought anything remotely like it. In a way -- this IS using my data for 3rd parties by making me believe that there is some correlation between my tastes and overhyped crap that has flooded the national earspace.
If they are going to collect my data, they should, as a courtesy, do something smart with it.
WOW (Score:2, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Itunes Music Store Default On or Off? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Itunes Music Store Default On or Off? (Score:2)
Re:Itunes Music Store Default On or Off? (Score:3, Insightful)
If I walk into a clothing store, it doesn't surprise me if the clerk offers to show me something based on what I'm wearing.
Re:Itunes Music Store Default On or Off? (Score:2)
goto the Menu -View
Third option(?) from the bottom Hide itunes Mini store.
When i updated last night I couldn't remember the keyboard combo. Apple has a fairly consistent layout. its not hard for an idiot to turn it off if it annoys them.
Re:Itunes Music Store Default On or Off? (Score:2)
If the Itunes Music Store is defaulted to ON, this is kind of sneaky since most people do not realize how to turn it off or if Apple saves their personal data or not.
Not only can the ministore be turned off from the menu and with the keysroke you suggest, there's an obvious button which closes the ministore pane. It's identical in appearance to the long-established close button for the album art pane. I didn't like the ministore's clutter and closed it immedaitely upon launching iTunes. It stays closed
Re:Itunes Music Store Default On or Off? (Score:2)
What, you mean they'll miss both the icon underneath that turns it off, AND the Edit/Hide Mini-Store menu option. I don't think so. But even if that's true, then they are even less likely to find the option to switch it on as they don't know it's there at all. Which is a good reason for enabling it by default to demonstrate the new feature.
Re:Yeah OK (Score:2, Insightful)