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The Secret Behind the iPod Scroll Wheel 350
Grump sent in a story saying "Ask any iPod user what they like the most about their device, and most will probably mention the scrollwheel. Here is the story behind the company that makes it (hint: it's not Apple). Great not just for the history, but insight as to both how Apple's design process works, and how the scroll wheel itself works."
clickwheel? (Score:2, Funny)
The Wheel (Score:4, Informative)
Re:clickwheel? (Score:5, Interesting)
You can get more information on the geeky side from http://www.synaptics.com/technology/cps.cfm [synaptics.com]
Re:clickwheel? (Score:5, Interesting)
Aside: I remember having an old Sony Trinitron 14" TV once, and it had a similar system for changing channel. It was very annoying if a fly decided to walk across the buttons, because the channels would change as the fly walked across!
Re:clickwheel? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:You Know It's Funny... (Score:5, Interesting)
Nothing really new there... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Nothing really new there... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Nothing really new there... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Nothing really new there... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Nothing really new there... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Nothing really new there... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Nothing really new there... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Nothing really new there... (Score:5, Funny)
True story
My grandfather worked for the telephone company 45 years. For a long time, his job involved dealing with customers who came in off the street.
In the days of rotary phones, the dialed number was detected by the amount of time it took the dial to return to the resting position. (Number of pulses sent as it made the trip, actually, I believe.)
So one day this woman comes in complaining that every time she dials a number which she knows is the right number, (in her words) "Some hussy comes on there and tells me there's no such number!" This woman was seriously offended by the (recorded, I think, and probably new in those days) suggestion that she was getting the wrong number, when she simply knew it had to be right.
So my grandfather handed her a phone and offered to let her make the call there in the office. The woman snatches the phone and angrily starts dialing her number -- but she's in such a big snit that every time she turns the dial around, she doesn't wait for it to finish; she grabs the dial and forces it back around to the resting position so she can get on with dialing the next number. I'm sure this technique resulted in an enormous time savings to her, probably adding a full five seconds of free time to her life if she did it for every call she made in forty years, but of course it prevented the phone from properly dialing the number since everything was based on the timing for that dial.
My grandfather started to explain this to the woman, but she was enraged and said, "Are you trying to tell me how to dial a phone?" Well, er, yes, ma'am, amazingly phone company employees probably knew a little bit more than you about how to dial a telephone. Not much more, but enough to know that what you were doing would never work. I think the woman finally got fed up and stormed out.
People are amazing.
Re:Nothing really new there... (Score:4, Interesting)
As someone who still has a rotary phone...
It just hung up the phone briefly, once for 1, twice for 2,
If you have pulse service in your area still, you can dial the phone by just hitting the hangup button repeatedly--it's not too tough to get the timing down.
Re:Nothing really new there... (Score:5, Interesting)
It's why New York is/was 212 and Chicago 312, etc.
909 would be considered the most unimportant place on the planet for the time.
The really privliaged and status hungry would beg, steal or borrow to attempt to get an old 5 digit number like 1-1111 or 1-1221.
Re:Nothing really new there... (Score:3, Interesting)
It was actually because it took the mechanical switches the phone company used back then less time to make a circuit connection to route a call to a popular area. Each number dialed made another connection in the final circuit, and they have to complete serially. Back then, there was an appreciable wait as the circuits were connected to get you a channel to your destination.
The phone company could not really care less about the time saved by one person dialing, but the time saved routing mill
Re:Nothing really new there... (Score:3, Informative)
I am sorry but your story is more
Re:Nothing really new there... (Score:5, Informative)
Standard pulse timing is 10 pps, with a window from about 7.5-12 IIRC. It's been a while since I had to adjust the little mechanical governor that controlled the rotary dial return rate. Duty cycle is 50%. Pulse too slow and it will be mistaken for a hookflash. Too fast and you'll exceed the slew rate of the switch and drop pulses. Mechanical switches are, of course, more succeptible to too-fast pulse rates. Electronic switches can probably accept faster than 12 pps, but 10 is still the standard.
The "turning of the dial" creates no current. It interrupts the circuit. So does the hookswitch, which led to being able to "dial" a phone with the hookswitch. You still had to have good manual dexterity, especially when there were higher numbers in the number you were trying to reach. This was popular in the days when a coin telephone disabled only the dial circuit and not the voice path. Nowadays, of course, you can't do this because the dial tone you hear when you pick up is generated by the phone itself, which accepts your call information and then decides how to route the call.
Re:Nothing really new there... (Score:3, Interesting)
I too vote myth, for this story.
Re:Nothing really new there... (Score:4, Interesting)
However, I find it quite interesting how old ideas are reborn - if someone said 10 years ago that there'd be a big rotational dial on the front of the biggest selling music player in 2004, I wouldn't have believed them... same with analogue controls on synthesizers which have recently made a comeback.
Re:Nothing really new there... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Nothing really new there... (Score:5, Interesting)
The only difference in the apple design is that it's significantly larger.
On a design perspective, nothing is original, it's design brilliance however to know when to use already created design elements in contrast to making a new one (MS can you hear me?) It's also no trick that the ipod is the same dimensions as a cassette. The ipod mini.. same dimensions of a business card. (The design ethic here is: Why pick shapes that people aren't already used to having?)
Re:Nothing really new there... (Score:2)
Such as using the already created WHEEL on the already created MOUSE? Or the already created LED with the already created DIGITAL CAMERA with the already created MOUSE?
Microsoft has come up with some cool hardware products.
Re:Nothing really new there... B&O (Score:2)
http://www.danchan.com/feature/2001/02/25/beocom/ b eocom.htm [danchan.com]
The user interface is the same: scroll through options or through the system's phone directory by rotating the wheel. Enter your choices by clicking the center button.
All four volume settings are also controlled via the wheel: ringer volume, phone speaker volume, stereo volume, and tv volume.
Re:Nothing really new there... (Score:3, Informative)
Why is this such a big deal? (Score:5, Insightful)
Touchpads are the best thing that ever happened to this company. They're getting licensing fees and royalties on almost every notebook sold, or they make money directly as the component vendor for the touch pads.
Re:Why is this such a big deal? (Score:2)
Re:Why is this such a big deal? (Score:5, Informative)
So I'd have to say that with the current generation clickwheels the touchpad on the iPod is far better. It's just sensitive enough without being too sensitive and it requires no adjustment to work that way. That alone is an achievement since there are so many different finger sizes out there and different people are going to push with different pressures.
Re:Why is this such a big deal? (Score:2)
They also have the ill-fated LCD touchpads that were on Toshibas. Why bother having that main screen at all. Put the scr
Re:Why is this such a big deal? (Score:4, Insightful)
Fingerprint Touchpad (Score:5, Interesting)
Up and Down vs Round and Round (Score:2, Interesting)
Car stereos, but that's relatively recent, what else?
Re:Up and Down vs Round and Round (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Up and Down vs Round and Round (Score:5, Interesting)
Circular controllers:
Obviously this is very easy on the computer, and fairly difficult with real devices. I've seen it done a couple of days ago in ChaosPro, a fractal generator. It's not the way you'd expect a scroll bar in a computer to work, though, but it's a lot better than the various virtual circular controllers some applications insist on using - circular controller really don't lend themselves well in computer GUIs, I think.
Re:Up and Down vs Round and Round (Score:2)
Gear sticks, especially on automatic cars.
Levers to hold open windows are usually graduated on a linear scale.
Linear controls make most sense when you have a limited number of finite positions, especially when they are a linear progression from each other.
Still, though... (Score:4, Funny)
[/joke]
Yeah... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Yeah... (Score:5, Interesting)
Yep, I remember getting a little standalone synaptics touchpad in 1996 as a novelty from a local computer junk store (microcache for anyone in Houston who knows of them - they bought the enron E monument at auction and have it in a small shrine now).
Any way, some people totally loved it (the touchpad) and one guy now has them on all his computers (even desktops) instead of a mouse.
Information? (Score:5, Informative)
Missing details (Score:5, Informative)
The article doesn't say how the scroll wheel works. It also doesn't mention anything about Apple's design process...
Re:Missing details (Score:2)
Well, actually, it does. It's basically Apple had little part in designing the iPod. The chips and design were outsourced (see that old Wired article). All they did was have Jobs give an ok and stamp an Apple logo on it. Why innovate when you can purchase?
Wildly misleading (Score:5, Insightful)
Their design team came up with a great concept, found people who could put it together relatively inexpensively (and in an extraordinarily quick amount of time). They have managed this project superbly. Everybody else (both in the MP3 player market and in computer field in general) had access to all of the elements that Apple did. None of them came close to putting together anyting remotely as functional, stylish, easy (and they still haven't)
no duh! (Score:5, Insightful)
Mouse wheel? (Score:3, Interesting)
The company made a straightened-out version of it for Creative's Zen Touch
It amazes me why they haven't considered making a mouse with this straightened-out version. Scroll wheels for mice would benefit from some development. Mine keeps getting stuck and makes an annoying sound when scrolling
Re:Mouse wheel? (Score:2)
Pic of it is here [com.com]
Re:Mouse wheel? (Score:4, Informative)
You mean like this [kensington.com] perhaps?
Re:Mouse wheel? (Score:2)
Re:Mouse wheel touchpad (Score:2)
I love UI problems... there's never an ideal solution but a good compromise can b
Re:Mouse wheel? (Score:2)
Why we all love iPod: (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Why we all love iPod: (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Why we all love iPod: (Score:2)
Yep, that'll work.
Next week on Slashdot (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Next week on Slashdot (Score:4, Funny)
With an indepth article regarding Apple's design process, and the exciting decision whether to make the power switch click or not.
Ain't as easy as it looks, apparently (Score:2)
Little things mean a lot sometimes. Try using a Sony vertical-design mini-DV camcorder sometime, and see how you like the rocker-switch zoom.
Nipples - the original scroll wheel (Score:4, Funny)
also works best when you have a good grip and use your thumb!
How does it work? Well it must be... (Score:3, Informative)
...capacitive. It must be, or something fairly similar.
It explains why the human finger can operate the wheel, but drag a BIC biro round the wheel and nothing happens.
Re:How does it work? Well it must be... (Score:2)
Re:How does it work? Well it must be... (Score:4, Funny)
Synaptics (Score:2)
I think that is neat because then you have a grid and it can be used as buttons like it is on the 4g ipods.
Chris
Thank you for this story! (Score:5, Funny)
Thank you for revealing the secret!
I'm wondering if there isn't a secret behind other things too, like my TV's remote control. It works alright, but it's tough to push the little buttons on the TV with it sometimes.
Huh? (Score:5, Insightful)
They conceived it, they narrowly specified its behavior, they brought it to market. Just because a contractor was involved that means Apple's "not responsible" for its creation? Apple's responsible more than ever: the corralled the capabilities and efforts necessary to make it a reality.
Uhh... Re:Huh? (Score:2)
Eliot Van Buskirk (Score:2)
He also forgot to set up mail forwarding. I just moved into a new apartment, and I keep getting mail for an Eliot Van Buskirk. I wonder if it's the same guy...
Anyone Else Hate It? (Score:5, Interesting)
the new click wheel looks a lot nicer and would probably solve that problem, but i have the old one.
Re:Anyone Else Hate It? (Score:2)
I use my iPod in the car all the time (most of my iPod use is in the car). I find that having a playlist of high-rated songs that are randomly selected tends to cut down on the amount of operation that I need to put in. If I don't like the song, I just hit the 'forward' button, and I'm done with it. For in-car use, pre-generated playlists are the way to go. Otherwise, just wait
Re:Anyone Else Hate It? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Anyone Else Hate It? (Score:2)
It will not solve your scrolling problem. If anything, it will make it worse, because the click wheel is oversensitive to finger motion when you are trying to rate a song on the fly... in particular it seems maddeningly predisposed to vary your rating by +/- 1 star when you lift your finger off the wheel.
What the click wheel does solve compared to the 3G iPods is the poor feedback and usability of th
SlashBoing (Score:2, Interesting)
Three of the top eight stories are from BoingBoing this AM. Geep. I'm all for wider dissemination of information, but come on...
look for it to show up elsewhere (Score:3, Interesting)
CP#$B
Next up... (Score:2, Funny)
Scroll skips over the first item (Score:2, Offtopic)
Apple Newton (Score:2)
Not quite the same thing, but similar capacitive detection technology.
A closer look at iPod design (Score:5, Informative)
Electronics Design Chain [designchain.com]
Scroll wheel, oh please.. clit it is! (Score:2)
And before you ask "WTF", let me explain.
Over here, the word for "mouse" is also a slang word for pussy. So what do you call the slightly protruding feature that you twiddle with you finger?
Long lists (Score:5, Insightful)
However, the iPod UI designers seemed to take this as an excuse to present you with enormous lists to scroll through with the wheel. My MP3 collection is modest by the standards of most iPod owners (I've not filled 20GB yet) -- but "browse by artist" gives me a list of 209. Scrolling to somewhere near the beginning is OK. Scrolling to somewhere near the end is OK (because you can scroll right to the end, then back). Scrolling to somewhere around the middle of the alphabet is a real pain.
All they needed to do was make it heirarchical --
"Artists -> (easy scroll) -> S -> (easy scroll) -> Smiths"
"Artists -> (difficult scroll) -> Smiths
Not the mechanical one, though (Score:3, Interesting)
Nit Picking (Score:2)
Quoth the article:
"As you can see in the image to the right, the scrollwheels from the second- and third-generation iPods keep that radical-looking design, and you can see where the four touch-sensitive buttons line the area betwe
Re:Like this is news (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Like this is news (Score:2, Insightful)
This just in apple doesn't make hard drives!
Re:RIM Blackberry (Score:2)
Rio wheel (Score:5, Interesting)
It works, but in very long lists it is noticeably inferior to a circular wheel you can stay on. Try scrolling through your list of all songs on your Rio. It doesn't work well, and this is proably why the Rio has you select the first letter of the song first and then go to the list (at least the Karma does).
Re:Summary "borrowed" (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't see what the problem with this is. Why should someone bother writing a summary for a story submission, when there's a perfectly good one available in the article itself?
I suppose it technically is plagiarism, but considering that the story submitter doesn't really stand to benefit from it I don't see how it matters. Have you ever heard yourself say "Damn, that was a kickass summary. That story submitter must be a freaking genius!"?
No? Didn't think so.
Re:Summary "borrowed" (Score:2, Informative)
Technically it's not plagiarism, but quoting. And that is legal, if you keep it to a short blurlb and not the whole text. What would be nice is a short notice like "From the article:" or something.
Re:Summary "borrowed" (Score:3)
No, technically it's quoting without the quotation marks or attribution. Really, that's plagiarism.
The problem is on slashdot's summaries you can't tell when they are quoting the person that submitted the article, and when that person is quoting the article directly. This is ambiguous:
Is Grump saying what is in the quot
it's not plagiarism (Score:3, Insightful)
jeez.
Re:Summary "borrowed" (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Feeling is believing (Score:2, Informative)
Just a bit of testimony on this, up until last week the only encounters I'd had with iPods were store demo models and I couldn't figure the bloody wheel out. I do have to say it's not immediately intuitive, having the clickable buttons threw me off, I thought you used the back and forward
Re:"Free iPod" == automatic -1 (Score:2)
Although made by the same company that makes laptop computer touchpads, and although the technology is quite similar, the feel is quite different, almost as if a thin layer of a slippery substance, like teflon, were on the user surface.
Re:evidence? (Score:3, Insightful)
iPod's ridiculously simple and intuitive, and that's what's making it superior to other products such as the iRiver and the Sonys (haha, the Sony issue still makes me laugh).
Re:evidence? (Score:4, Interesting)
I have an original 5Gig iPod. No touch sensitivity here, the scroll-wheel is mechanical. So the wheel was done for design reasonss, not purely for touch sensitivity.
Also, look at the very latest iPods - I allowed myself a wry smile here, as I'd always mainted that capacity disregarded, the original iPods are better designed than all but the newest ones because they don't depend on a row of buttons at the top. Apple clearly agreed, the buttons have disappeared and the pure scroll-wheel interface has returned.
So there's two strikes regarding the wheel being chosen for design, as opposed to cost features.
Cheers,
Ian
Re:evidence? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:evidence? (Score:2)
as for a sw
Re:excellent new UI feature (Score:2, Interesting)
First gen iPod has two types of scrollwheel (Score:2, Informative)
It may well be that the very first 1st Gen iPods used an optical encoder. However, my late-1st Gen iPod (first of the 20Mb models) definitely has some form of touchpad, as the touch ring does not move.
Re:First gen iPod has two types of scrollwheel (Score:2)
1st gen was mechanical wheel, buttons round the outside (5G)
2nd gen was touch wheel,buttons round the outside (10, 15, 20G)
3rd gen was scroll wheel, buttons on the top (15, 30, 40G)
4th gen is click wheel, buttons under scroll wheel (20, 40G)
I'm guessing a bit at capacities but I think I'm about right.
dave
Re:Offended (Score:2)
Feminism: The Radical Idea that Feminists are Women
Apple is like James Watt (Score:5, Insightful)
While I understand your need to troll, sir - I'd like to point you to two famous inventors: Thomas Newcomen and James Watt. The latter is much more famous, as he is often identified (incorrectly) as the inventor of steam engine. In fact, the first practical steam engine was built by Newcomen [newcomen.org], but it was Watt [ideafinder.com] who has improved it to the point of triggering industrial revolution. I think Apple is a bit like James Watt in history of personal computing. They didn't invent GUI, but they improved it to the point of triggering revolution in UI concepts. They didn't invent UNIX, but they improved it to the point that even Joe Sixpack can use. They didn't invent portable digital music, but they improved it to trigger a revolution in how we purchase and listen to our music.
Re:Apple is like James Watt (Score:5, Interesting)
1. Pull-down menu
2. Drag'n'drop
3. Direct windows manipulation (moving & resizing)
I hope you can find now a decent posttraumatic treatment?