Microsoft Unhappy With HP's iTunes Decision 1020
rbrandis writes "The general manager of Microsoft's Windows digital media division David Fester has suggested that iTunes' emerging dominance would be bad for consumers, because it would limit them to the iPod, as opposed to limiting them to Microsoft based products. In a moment of what must have been an attempt at ironic humor he said, 'Windows is about choice - you can mix and match software and music player stuff. We believe you should have the same choice when it comes to music services.'"
i do have a choice (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:i do have a choice (Score:5, Funny)
Does anyone else cringe when you see/hear the words "choice" and "Microsoft" in the same sentence?
Re:i do have a choice (Score:4, Funny)
I might if I were low on karma.
Re:i do have a choice (Score:5, Funny)
Microsoft keeps using that word... I do not think it means what they think it means.
-- james
Re:i do have a choice (Score:5, Funny)
Bad for consumers? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Bad for consumers? (Score:5, Funny)
Good for HP, good for consumers (Score:5, Insightful)
In this case it serves another bussiness strategy. Windows Computers are commodities, and among brands with a rep for quality the only distinguishing feature is low price. Dell or HP: buy the cheaper. The only way to beat this game is the way apple does it: differentiate yourself. If you buy dell then you are buying WMA. if you are buying HP you are buying into AAC. One presumes that the computer will come with software that makes it work slightly better with its native player.
Finally it looks like AAC is about to win. Nokia, panasonic, amybe even RealPlayer are all going to support AAC.
so HPs move is good for HP. They get room to develop their own. they are in the market early with no R&D costs and differnetiate themselves from dell.
consumers of course benefit too. HP and others will eventually be making players to compete with ipods. That will bring down prices.
As an ex-DECcie I can't let that stand (Score:5, Informative)
Sorry pal, the most notable engineering effort by Compaq was marketing.
Compaq essentially was a marketing organization and box assembler, which made too much money and bought a couple of enterprise computer companies (in hopes to get a foothold into their customer base).
Digital Equipment [wikipedia.org] (or DEC as we preferred to refer to it) on the other hand was an engineering company (which was later part of its downfall) and the technologies you are referring too where hatched at DEC.
Notable engineering efforts where (leaving away very ancient history) the Alpha AXP chip (which introduced 64bit processing 10 years before Intel could even come up with a workable prototype and Itanium "steels" a lot from alpha), or clustering, which worked seemlessly and transparently in 1988 (probably before that), while other "clustering" technologies, most notably under HP/UX, seem to be a bunch of hacked together scripts, which provide a never ending nightmare (specifically after major migrations). I could continue with some of the best compilers and a development environment, which would still put a lot of modern stuff to shame.
Compaq had no fucking clue what they where getting and they where even more clueless in the realm of enterprise customers relying on rock solid, mission critical iron. Uptimes for such customers (for example the Amsterdam coppers [linuxsa.org.au]) is measured in thousands of days and they tend to take a dim view on the infamous CTRL-ALT-DELETE "error correction" procedure.
I absolutely agree with your statement regarding miss Fiorino, though.
Re:Bad for consumers? (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem with your oversimplification is that it implies a single point of blame when the blame is really with our whole capitalist system that demands shareholder value at all costs.
Re:Bad for consumers? (Score:5, Insightful)
the blame is really with our whole capitalist system that demands shareholder value at all costs
I am sorry but that is such a crock. First of all your phrase "shareholder value" is so general as to be meaningless. Market capitalisation of listed companies is built on two ideas; dividend income from operating profitable businesses and amortised values of future earnings, largely through growth. Funnily enough both these factors are also definitions of shareholder value. Look at the PE of a banking stock compared to say a biotech stock. Capitalism is built upon a number of simple principles, one of which is risk versus return. History shows so many examples of capital investing in risky projects and generating the appropriate return when those projects succeed. The entire rail industry in the 19th century was essentially privately funded. Would "shareholder value at any cost" have been able to justify those projects?
If there is a criticism to be levelled at shareholders today, it is the fact that they have failed to accept risk and return and in fact you could argue that it is risk averse investors that are driving the lack of forsight in the flows of capital. It is pretty tough to blame capitalism as a whole. Certainly one cannot blame Capitalisms principle of "shareholder value at all costs" since no such principle exists.
Please note. That is not to say that Capitalism does not have problems, just that they are not the one you mention.
Re:Bad for consumers? (Score:5, Informative)
Not true. Actually, the rise of the rail industry in the gilded age (1866-1901) is an excellent example of the weird mixture of private monopoly and state intervention, unfortunately typical for American capitalism. If there is a large project - such as "we need railroads to connect our cities" or "we need broadcaster to provide us television" or "we need weapons to combat communism", it is indeed given to private hands. But since it is so important, private enterprises receive substantial state aid (such as advances in government bonds) and become strong enough to influence politics by financing the politicians back. That's how the famous military-industrial complex works (and just because you heard this name in some Oliver Stone movie, it does not mean it doesn't exist).
For example, Tom Scott, a typical railorad tycoon, had a deal with the Republican presidential candidate Rutherford Hayes - "I will help you win the 1876 election, you will subsidize my Texas and Pacific lines when you'll get the office". Scott has helped, Hayes has won, railroad was subsidized. Government also kindly provided troops to break the railroad strikes of 1877.
Re:Bad for consumers? (Score:5, Insightful)
None of you whining geeks cared one whit about the livelihoods of the Detroit automakers, American tailors, or consumer electronics while all THAT was shipped overseas, but now that it might actually affect YOU, it's time to take a stand and put a stop to it, right?
Sorry, but hypocrisy is one of my hot buttons. You've benefitted from overseas outsourcing for years, with your cheap clothing, cars, and electronics. Well guess what - your job isn't so sacred either. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Get over it.
NEWS FLASH! (Score:5, Interesting)
Why don't they sue Apple ? Hell, iTunes is bundled with OS X! Because they'll bundle a music store with media player soon enough... and try to kill iTunes completely.
Re:NEWS FLASH! (Score:5, Insightful)
If you buy Mac OS X and don't want iTunes, simple. Drag the iTunes app to the trash and it is gone. No registry mess, just a clean simple removal. Try that with Internet Explorer. I'm betting you can't.
There is nothing wrong with bundling, per se. It is when you use illegal tactics to force people/manufacturers to use your solution instead of an alternative.
Re:NEWS FLASH! (Score:5, Funny)
I just trashed Internet Explorer, now I'm sending this message from the public library while I reinstall Windoze. Doh!
choice? (Score:4, Funny)
naked FUD? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:choice? (Score:5, Funny)
- Your free web-based e-mail account can end in either msn.com or hotmail.com... your choice!
- You can browse the web with either Internet Explorer or MSN Explorer... your choice!
- You can read your e-mail with Outlook Express or Outlook... your choice!
- You can use Windows XP Home or Windows XP Pro... your choice!
- You can use WMA files with any music player that has paid the appropriate fees to Microsoft, plenty of choices available in the market!
- You can get WMA files from any music service that has paid the appropriate fees to Microsoft, plenty of choices available in the market!
Re:choice? (Score:5, Insightful)
This tactic made is a little bit tough to 'choose' BeOS or OS2 before that.
Re:choice? (Score:5, Insightful)
You wanna talk drinks? Okay, let's talk drinks.
Let's say 95% of the population were hopelessly hooked to Coke because of unknown addictive agents within it. It tastes like crap - but everybody uses it cause they're hooked. Pepsi tastes way better, but it's not a substitute because you can't get the same fix that you can from the unique taste of Coke. Also, Coke users become extremely hyper and start babbling in a language (Coke-speak) that only other Coke users can understand. Workplaces decide to standardize on Coke-speak, so you must drink Coke if you want a job and be able to communicate.
Because Coca-Cola controls 95% of the drink market, they can raise their prices sky high and get massive profits. Let's say McDonalds objects - they are making crap margins on their "dollar ninety nine" meals already, but what can they do? Even though Coca-Cola is gouging them, McDonalds has no choice. If McDonalds doesn't sell Coke, they will lose 95% of their customers who will go to Burger King (or some other crappy fast food joint) for their Coke fix. So what does McDonalds do? They comply, of course. And other fast food joints, faced with the same dilemma, are also forced to comply to stay in business.
Now initially, McDonalds sold Coke plus a variety of different drinks from some other companies. It did this because to provide variety and because other drinks were cheaper than Coke to resell. Coca-Cola then politely asks McDonalds to include (bundle) its entire family of drinks, such as Vanilla Coke (Office) and to exclude the other companies' drinks. "And if not?" "We will raise your price of Coke", Coca-Cola replies. "What?!" "So don't buy from us then", mocks Coca-Cola. Faced with razor thin margins now (but still manageable) vs. losing 95% of their customers, McDonalds agrees to an "offer it can't refuse".
So then a new company comes along and creates a revolutionary new business based on designer cups (so sue me, I couldn't think of an internet browser analogy in the soft drink world). The new designer cups become really hot and take off all over the world. The new company (let's call it Netscup) becomes really successful.
Coca-Cola sees this new industry and gets jealous. They want a piece of the action. Why not use our addictive drink to force Netscup out of business so that we can monopolize the lucrative designer cup business as well? Coca-Cola has no idea how to make cups, but they try anyway. They are a poor imitation of Netscup's products, but Coke doesn't care, as they are making billions off Coke and can afford to give away the cups for free. Even though the cups are free, people still prefer Netscups because of their superior quality and the originality factor (they were 1st).
Coca-Cola decides it's time to get down and dirty. It contacts all the restaurants and fast food joints and offers them an ultimatum: Coke must be sold (or bundled) in Coca-Cola cups. Furthermore, Coca-Cola decides to "choke Netscup's air supply" by offering incentives (such as a cheaper price of Coke) if Netscup products are *not* sold at the locale. Pretty soon Netscup finds their revenues drying up because all the restaurants turn their backs on them. They are forced to cut prices, and are losing increasing amounts of money every day because Coca-Cola just happens to have Coke. In the meantime, Coca-Cola throws a billion dollars into developing their line of cups, and eventually the cups improve to that state where their quality and their cost (free) are more worthwhile than Netscup's still slightly superior, but more costly (not free) cups. Coca-Cola then goes for the jugular by engineering Coke and their cups so that Coke is only effective when it is served in Coca-Cola cups. Serving Coke in other cups proves to be toxic to the drinker. Coca-Cola then claims in court that Coke and the Coca-Cup are actually one product,
Re:choice? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:choice? (Score:5, Interesting)
I have to admit, this is horse pucky. (Score:5, Insightful)
Now iTunes is shipping with Windows on HP machines. Consumers have a choice on whether or not to use iTunes.
Sounds like the same "choice" as before--so what could Microsoft possibly be worried about? What reason do they have to worry?
You get three guesses, and the first two don't count.
Re:I have to admit, this is horse pucky. (Score:5, Insightful)
Most of the time they don't even realise they have a choice. Most "consumers" I know call IE "The Internet."
Re:choice? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:choice? (Score:4, Insightful)
The completely static "X doesn't exist NOW, so it never will" reality you live in must be tremendously boring.
Apple is only one of many companies *using* AAC (Score:5, Informative)
"AAC was developed by the MPEG group that includes Dolby, Fraunhofer (FhG), AT&T, Sony, and Nokia"
http://www.apple.com/mpeg4/aac/ [apple.com]
"MPEG-4 AAC has been specified as the high-quality general audio coder for 3G wireless terminals. Apple Computer has incorporated MPEG-4 AAC into QuickTime 6 and iTunes 4, as well as the latest version of its award-winning iPod portable music player. The Digital Radio Mondiale system (the next-generation digital replacement for radio broadcasting under 30 MHZ) builds on the audio coding of MPEG-4 AAC."
http://www.vialicensing.com/products/mpeg4aac/sta
Re:choice? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's completely moronic when people blame a company that's doing something that other companies never tried (a better codec, less restricting DRM, seamless integration) all while people are rooting against them. If you're going to blame someone, blame the other companies for not supporting AAC in their players, Apple is already working on Windows Media for iPod.
Re:choice? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:choice? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's called MP3.
So much for vendor lock-in. 'Course, if you really want to use AAC, you could use iPod or this from Nokia [mphone.co.uk] and while we're talking about Nokia, what about that cool new N-Gage [cellular.co.za] . Then again there's this new model from O2 [theregister.co.uk]. And of course, it won't be long before you can buy HP's iPod clone.
Re:choice? (Score:5, Insightful)
Ok, here's the deal. You buy a WMA you can play it on exactly (1) OS.
You buy a WMA you are LOCKED into Windows. So when you want to play that WMA music you bought on your new computer and it'll have to be money sent to Microsoft. That's vendor lock-in.
You buy a AAC you can play it on Windows or OS X.
So AAC is about choice. You see?
Somebody has to say it... (Score:4, Insightful)
Apple's iTunes just works... it's that simple.
Somebody has to say this too... (Score:5, Funny)
- Henry Ford
People may hate Windows Media Player... (Score:5, Informative)
Terribly, terribly grateful (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Terribly, terribly grateful (Score:5, Funny)
Re:where do these funny points come from? (Score:5, Funny)
What confuses me is Dell's response.... (Score:5, Insightful)
"According to the New York Times, Dell also suggests HP is making a mistake. A Dell spokesman said: "We expect competition and it's good for customers. Over time, however, customers will want industry standard choices.''"
I am no English expert, but it sure sounds like they are tryin to say that WMA should be the only game in town, and are at the same time trying to play it off that they 'want' competition.
Re:What confuses me is Dell's response.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:What confuses me is Dell's response.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:What confuses me is Dell's response.... (Score:5, Interesting)
"The next big thing isn't the next gizmo or killer app or hot box. Customers want all this to work together and they want a seamless approach. We're very much going to make sure that the Microsoft and Apple worlds work together. That's part of the power we bring to this thing."
meaning HP is treating Microsoft as just another supplier, where Dell can't.
So, IMHO, because HPs CEO has more balls
Yay competition!
Soko
Re:What confuses me is Dell's response.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:What confuses me is Dell's response.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:What confuses me is Dell's response.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Doubletalk is doubleplus good!
Its a sentence constructed in a way that is meant to make its readers come off with a feeling that 1) Dell wants what's best for them, 2) Dell made industry choices based on what is best for the costumer (damned lie), 3) Dell's choice will become a standard, and therefore: if you buy a different standard than what Dell is selling you will be buying something that will be nonstandard in the future (ooooh, bad!).
In other words: FUD.
Re:What confuses me is Dell's response.... (Score:5, Insightful)
AND btw, AAC *is* an industry standard. It's just not the one Microsoft wants. WMA, on the other hand, is *proprietary*, and is not a "standard" at all. Just like all the other Windows stuff, the like to call it "the standard" simply because it's popular, and because they get away with it. Another example of doublespeak!
Re:What confuses me is Dell's response.... (Score:5, Insightful)
"Microsoft's WMA"
"Dolby's AAC"
Which of those companies do you expect to have a higher quality audio codec? Dolby...where have I heard that name before...Oh yeah, just around nearly every single stereo system sold for the last umpteen years. Oh, and "She Blinded Me With Science"....
Rewrite that statement as:
"Microsoft's Car"
"Ford's Car"
See what I mean?
Re:What confuses me is Dell's response.... (Score:5, Informative)
Actually Apple's iTMS music is in MPEG-4 format, which is virtually identical to the Quicktime container format. The MPEG-4 format was adopted from the Quicktime format. The music in the container format is AAC which has been encrypted by FairPlay, a DRM encryption scheme.
If you look at the files you download from iTMS they have the file extension ".m4p" which stands for MPEG-4 Protected. Tunes that you encode yourself using iTunes AAC are given the extension ".m4a" which stands for MPEG-4 Audio.
The iPod supports both MPEG-4 Protected and MPEG-4 Audio. Both formats use AAC to encode the audio signal. iPods also can play MP3, Audible, AIFF, and WAV.
HP kills DRM (yay Carly) (Score:5, Funny)
Anybody who has installed any kind of media player on Windows knows what I'm talking about... it's almost impossible to assign specific file types to Window's Media Player, QuickTime, RealPlayer, Winamp, etc., without all of these applications trying to steal the right to handle these file types out from one another. Now the same thing is going to happen, but with DRM in the mix?
It's going to be a zoo. Nobody is going to stand still for this, especially when people start losing the right to access content they've already payed for.
And just wait till this shit starts happening to everybody's porn collection. People will be running amok in the streets.
Wrong. (Score:5, Insightful)
She is no ones friend save for herself and her fellow exec. She thinks nothing of the employers/users/shareholder of HP.
MS = Choice = BAH! (Score:5, Interesting)
Microsoft is ALL about cornering you into using MS products...
PRIME example is their damn Movie Maker 2... quite nice program to use (I haven't used iMovie, so I can't compare), but then try and save... "Hmmm, I'd like to save to an open format that pretty much anyone can play... VCD or SVCD, or perhaps just plain MPEG would be nice." "Hmmm, I seem to ONLY be able to save to MS formats unless I have a few gig free to save out to a straight DV dump and then use someone else's program to convert to a more user friendly format, so really I'm forcing anyone who wants to watch movies I've made to have an MS compatible player"
"Hmmm, MS can blow me, and blow me hard"
Re:MS = Choice = BAH! (Score:5, Informative)
Betamax vs. VHS (Score:5, Interesting)
Sony had a superior quality format for videotape (betamax), but wouldn't share with anyone. Meanwhile, Panasonic, Philips, and others all got together and agreed on VHS format. Competition brought lower priced machines, and eventually VHS killed betamax for home use.
Microsoft is half-right: it is about choice-- but it must ALL be available for choice: the hardware, the OS, the apps, the data format. Only true, open standards under a GPL, LGPL, or other similar "free to evolve independent of any single vendor"-type license will work in the long run.
Re:Betamax vs. VHS (Score:5, Interesting)
So, seems like Apple is aware of this and thus sharing with quite a few people: Pepsi, Windows, HP, etc. And they certainly haven't been timid about signing up as many celebrities as they can to promote the iPod and the iTMS. It would've been kind of hard for a movie star to walk around with their betamax player, but the iPod is the new Air Jordan.
Honest Question (Score:5, Interesting)
can someone clarify (Score:4, Insightful)
AppleTurns (Score:5, Insightful)
Check it out, this was the best a company spokesperson could muster to undercut the announcement: "Windows is all about choice... we believe you should have the same choice when it comes to music services." Translation: "Use any service you want as long as it sells Windows Media, buy any player out there as long as it plays Windows Media-- but for heaven's sake, don't buy one of those wretched iPod thingies or we'll be completely boned with our whole plan to monopolize digital media commerce and then we might actually have to start innovating for our paychecks for a change." Or, to put it a little more succinctly, "you can have any color you want, as long as it's black."
iPod vs Dell DJ (Score:5, Insightful)
I had a 5gb 1st Gen iPod, and I now have a Dell DJ (Dell gave me the credit, Apple wouldn't).
I prefer the iPod.
The DJ works ok, but the user experience isn't as good.
There's no way to stop a playing song. Only pause it.
Syncing music is not intutitive.
Navigating through the tracks on the DJ takes FOREVER.
It's just not as well thought out as iTunes and the iPod are.
I'm thinking of selling my Dell DJ on eBay, and buying an iPod or an iPod mini.
Choice! (Score:4, Funny)
Do not laugh at our choice. Microsoft is all many choices. We have so much choice it is silly. You must not listen to the apple! We will crush the infidels with all the choice that we are having!
Sincerely, Microsoft Information Minister
Choice? Oh, that's rich. (Score:5, Insightful)
HP made a choice, as the market seems to be doing as well.
Let's see how well Microsoft lives with this.
Oh, and to all of you who say "Watch how high the price of Windows goes for HP", Microsoft won't dare do anything of the sort. Having both IBM and HP actively looking to kill Windows is not something Microsoft shareholders would appreciate.
Soko
If Microsoft's so pro-choice... (Score:5, Insightful)
In fact, there has never been a more monopolistic, closed technology advocate than Microsoft. If someone comes up with something original, or something that's superior to anything Microsoft can engineer, then they'll be driven into the ground by the full force of the Microsoft machine.
I use Microsoft products (eg, Windows 2000, Office) and I also use non-Microsoft products that compete directly with the company's offerings (eg, Opera, Winamp). I'm not pro- or anti-Microsoft. What I am is pro-choice. And, frankly, that's one thing Microsoft can accurately never claim to be.
After all . . . (Score:5, Interesting)
Remember, kiddies, that Microsoft is never about competing. Otherwise, they'd still be working on IE for Mac OS X, instead of complaining that another browser beat them.
Take your toys and go home, I say. We don't want you here.
Gollum! (Score:5, Funny)
MS: Where would you be without me? (gollum gollum). I saved us. It was me. We monopolized because of me!
HP: Not anymore.
MS: What did you say?
HP: Apple looks after us now. We don't need you.
MS: What?
HP: Leave now and never come back.
MS: No!
HP: Leave now and never come back!
MS: Arrrgh!
HP: LEAVE NOW AND NEVER COME BACK!
[HP is panting and looking around and realises MS is gone.]
HP: We told him to go away! And away he goes Preciousss. Gone, gone, gone, HP is free!
this and that (Score:5, Funny)
Also,
Slavery is Freedom
and
War is Peace
If I remember my Orwell right.
Apple Choice vs. Microsoft "Choice" (Score:5, Insightful)
Apple wants to provide the "choice" of a Non-Windows platform and non-Microsoft technology. And Apple, for all their ills as far as co-opting technology in ways distressingly similar to Microsoft, has never been known to utterly decimate the competition or actively belittle or disparage them. What Apple does when they add new features to the OS is to simply set the bar higher for 3rd party developers.
Apple bothers me in some things, but when it comes right down to it, I don't see Apple trying dirty tricks in the background to drive anyone away from creating music services for the Mac platform. Microsoft would just -love- to push vendors into a MS Music Store lock in.
Re:Apple Choice vs. Microsoft "Choice" (Score:5, Insightful)
Apple = "our product is smaller, lighter, faster, more stylish, and in almost every way better. And it has a slick marketing campaign. You Suck."
Of course, the clearest indication of choice in this issue is right before your eyes
The first thing Carly has said that I like... (Score:5, Insightful)
This is probably the only remotely interesting initiative HP has embarked on since Carly took over.
Let's hope it's more successful than most of them have been.
Lots if iTunes-compatible players (Score:5, Insightful)
What these other players do NOT support is AAC-DRM files like those sold by the iTMS. I'm sure Apple would be happy to license their DRM scheme to a third-party mp3 player if they wanted to do so and the price were right. Money talks.
every zealot's wet dream! (Score:5, Funny)
If microsoft did this once a month, IT productivity would go up 10%.
WHO is David Fester? (Score:5, Interesting)
Internet Explorer Bug Makes a Return Visit [wired.com]
In 1998 he was the management flunky most directly responsible for all those MSIE bugs.
"On the one hand, they say they're pursuing standards, but they're implementing and pushing proprietary technology with their development community," Microsoft product manager David Fester said. "Microsoft has pledged 100 percent standards support for some time. The truth is in the pudding and the products."
Pot, Kettle Black (netscape, microsoft , standards, name-calling) [com.com]
Wednesday's Windows Media announcements are specific to XP, said David Fester, general manager of Microsoft's Windows Digital Media division. "These are companies that are doing things specifically around XP," he said. "As you know, our Windows Media effort is broader than just XP."
Windows Media announced for MAC/Linux/Solaris (not) [com.com]
"This is unprecedented, but we realized we need to work together [with Netscape] for the common good. We decided we should not propose separate standards for privacy software." David Fester, Microsoft, June 97
More Outright Lies from David Fester [tprc.org]
Tell me again why I want to listen to *anything* this man has to say.
bizarro world (Score:5, Funny)
It all boils down to one thing for me: (Score:5, Insightful)
Apple wants us to use AAC, developed by Dolby.
Last time I looked my stereo, TV, DVD player, Car Stereo, etc etc etc all carry the Dolby logo, not the Microsoft logo.
It's a simple choice.
History repeating itself (sort of) (Score:5, Interesting)
This is affirmed by the fact that the 1984 ad that was played during MWSF had an iPod digitally grafted on to the woman throwing the hammer.
Apple is now the dominant manufacturer of portable music playback devices and has assumed the role of IBM. The licensing of the iPod and iTMS is a move straight out of the IBM playbook 20 years ago.
Life imitates parody... (Score:5, Interesting)
Under Anti-Trust Pressure, Apple Releases iTunes for Windows [ridiculopathy.com]
Choice? I'll show you choice. (Score:5, Insightful)
Real World - We charge all vendors equally and make all our money off of the applications you have to buy to interact with these devices. MS Office, Exchange, and we make it next to impossible for someone to convert Lotus Notes into your Windoows CE, er Pocket Windows, er Pocket Windows 2002, er 2003, er hey you need a new PDA every year from our 'choice'
While my Palm 3.0 OS still works and I can still load what's latest and greatest on it.
MSSPeak - iTunes is a closed format, they don't offer choice.
Apple makes a player. It uses FairPlay's DRM. Apple doesn't own fairplay, and there is nothing stopping anyone from releasing players and/or portables to support this. Though people haven't, except one major one... HP.
However here's another handy dandy pocket windows media os that you ahve to buy all new items for in six months or so that should do everything but support AAC from Apple, but that's OK we have WMA and it even has a true lossless CODEC for you audiophiles - Apple Doesn't! Their software is lossless! BTW our Pocket Media OS will let you play a widescreen movie on a 2" LCD and you'll like it because we said so. Apple is insane saying that no one wants that because we make it and you buy it because we said it's there!
Whatever. Granted other than AAC that iTunes using being a bit to tight on the compression for my taste *I* like it and I've bought a few hundred songs. Would I care if it died tomorrow and some other vendor came out with a killer app? Heck no, but then again iTMS is the only one in the 10s of millions of songs sold. If 5% of the computer population can do that....
Lets prove MS Wrong... (Score:5, Insightful)
Otherwise Microsoft is right... Oh wait you can just Burn a CD in iTunes and rip the CD into mp3 right in iTunes. Nevermind cary on nothing to see here.
Re:choice (Score:5, Funny)
Re:choice (Score:5, Informative)
iTunes doesn't require you to have an iPod. It works fine on your computer. And it's the only solution that allows you to take the files you buy from it, unprotect them, and turn them into whatever format you want.
I know, you'll call me an Apple apologist. Whatever. I guess I could call you a Microsoft apologist and it would make as much sense.
Re:choice (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh yeah, but Apple prevents you from doing that by abusing their overwhelming monopoly in order to get you to do what they want.
No, wait, that's MS...
Except in this case Apple is forcing users to use their superior mp3 player to interface with their superior online music store. And if you don't agree with that appraisal, fine, but then why do you care? Just use something else. If there was any real competition to the Apple/iTMS combination nobody would be whining about this.
Re:choice (Score:5, Informative)
The only limitation is that you cannot play AAC protected (iTunes music store) files on these third-party players. But a quick capture/rip (or just use Audio Hijack to capture the stream to MP3) takes care of that limitation.
Re:Can someone explain to me why (Score:5, Informative)
I think its cool that Apple managed to get the record companies to agree on a system as liberal as iTMS. You can burn an *unlimited* number of *unprotected audio CDs* with the only restriction that a particular *playlist* can be burned a maximum of 10 times. (Not a big deal, just make a new playlist with the same songs or, for that matter, just make a copy of the *unprotected audio CD* you already burned 10 copies of!)
You can authorize 3 computers to play the protected files directly and you can backup the protected files to any type of media you like. You can play the protected files on as many iPods as you want, etc...
Re:Can someone explain to me why (Score:5, Informative)
To play this back, you need to convert it back to raw bits again. Now, you can capture those bits (Audio Hijack does this), and save the file, but it will be huge. (You encoded using MP3 etc becuase you wanted to save space).
If you reencode this with any lossy CODEC, including the 'original', you will lose some more information. Probably enough that you will notice that the quality has degraded.
So, the DRM in AAC stops you making unlimited copies of the original file. (Well, you can copy them, but they will only play on a limited number of machines---keyed to the embedded DRM info.) You can of course burn the tracks to CD---which copies the raw bitstream. You can make an unlimited number of copies of this (though iTunes won't let you make more than 10 copoies of a playlist, but that is mere inconvenience). You can also re-encode using another DRM free CODEC, but if that CODEC is lossy, the quality will be degraded. Probably noticeably.
Note again though: any time you reencode between lossy CODECs, you will lose some quality. This has nothing to do with DRM.
In conclusion, you are right. A copy is going to be lossy, except if you burn to CD (which is easy).
Re:choice (Score:5, Informative)
And in this instance, you're wrong. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:And in this instance, you're wrong. (Score:5, Insightful)
I am sick and tired of this Red Herring of an argument.
It doesn't matter if Apple used the "ultra supreme, open standard, endorsed by RMS, JWZ, and YHWH file format", the second they encrypt it using proprietary DRM, it becomes proprietary. Period. Can I play it on my standards-based AAC player? No, therefore it is not an open standard. It is embraced and extended.
Second, it is irrelevent that iTunes the software can rip, and play strait AAC and burn m4p to CD. MusicMatch's software can rip, and play straid mp3 and burn DRM'ed WMA to CD. Does that make the WMA good? Then why does Apple doing it make m4p good?
Please stop using this argument. It is a half-truth and you will end up decieving some poor dude into thinking that he can play iTMS music on something other than iTunes and iPod.
Re:Other AAC Players (Score:5, Insightful)
If you think about, it since iTMS is being subsidized by iPod sales, if Apple were to allow others to make m4p players they would have people buying stuff off of iTMS (which costs Apple money) and playing it on less expensive third party players (which earns Apple nothing). Coupled with Apples past behavior, it is my opinion that they will avoid iPod clones for as long as possible.
If I am incorrect it would be good to know. I really like Apple's work, but am always wary of them because Jobs has a history of being just as agressive as Gates, and even more reluctant to standardize.
Re:choice (Score:5, Insightful)
Choice in the Microsoft World (Score:5, Insightful)
By platform I don't just mean Windows desktop PC's... the XBox is one small step for Microsoft, one giant leap for world domination. Consider that Bill Gates' house is one of the most technology-driven pieces of real estate in the world. Imagine if 10 years from now, it was like that everywhere; running all MS software.
Choices MS wants to give you:
What wallpaper do you want?
Will you use XP Home at Home, or be a rebel and use XP Pro?
Will you buy a Dell, Compaq or HP computer to run Windows on?
Which charity would you like to see Bill Gates donate to this year?
The Microsoft Way isn't about eliminating choices; it's about controlling all available choices.
Re:....just out of curiosity (Score:5, Informative)
Re:....just out of curiosity (Score:4, Funny)
About the same time "moosen" became the plural of moose (as in "I see a flock of moosen").
(props to Brian Regan)
Re:....just out of curiosity (Score:5, Informative)
Re:....just out of curiosity (Score:5, Funny)
Don't iPods already work with Windows?
Well, they did, but Microsoft will have a critical patch out soon to fix that problem.
Re:....just out of curiosity (Score:5, Informative)
Jon of DeCSS fame has already done this [slashdot.org].
Re:Isn't he right? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Isn't he right? (Score:5, Informative)
iTunes itself allows you to create unprotected MP3 and unprotected AAC from your own music collection and do whatever you want with them.
I do not believe Microsoft's Windows Media Player for the Mac allows listening to protected WMA files, so in that regard the WMA format is more locked in than AAC (currently).
Also if you look at Buy.com's music store you'll see that instead of Apple's flat and mild DRM policy (same policy all songs), music company's can restrict you to how often you can copy music to your player and how many times you can play a song and if you can burn it to CD (the ability to do this may be in AAC files, i'm not sure, but it has not been enabled)
so no, currently the itunes is not as restrictive as Windows Media Player, but the protected AAC's can only be played on iPod players (if Apple gains a large enough share of the online music world -- say 90%, there may be an anti-trust law suit against them for not allowing the songs to be played on non-Apple devices)
Kevin
Re:Isn't he right? (Score:5, Insightful)
You can play DRM-encoded AAC iTunes content on iPods, other iTunes equipped Macs and PCs, burn the content to CD, and stream your AAC library to other Macs/PCs on the local network.
However, it doesn't matter. You could turn your argument on it's head and state that you can only listen to DRM-WMA content on DRM-WMA devices (and exactly how many WMA devices currently support DRM-locked WMA files?), whereas you can listen to DRM-encoded AAC files on any iPod/HP Music Player/Mini iPod or iTunes equipped Mac or PC.
Both would still pale in comparison to the number of devices that can support MP3s. Microsoft is pissed because the choices that HP is offering doesn't include their brand of proprietary lock, weakening the chances that WMA will become the new
Re:Isn't he right? (Score:5, Informative)
OK, Let's see if I can clear this up for you.
iTunes can handle several different audio codecs. Most of my files are MP3s, but some are AIFFs and some are AAC. That being said, I can sync and listen to ALL my MP3s and AIFF files on ANY player that can understand them. You don't need an iPod to listen to MP3s from iTunes - almost any MP3 player will do.
iTunes Music Store on the other hand only provides AAC encoded content. You must have a device capable of playing AAC files to play this content - or, you can make a playlist, hit "burn" (you don't even need a CD - there is software that can make a "virtual" CD") and you now have all your purchased content in 128 Bit MP3 format. Yes, one extra step, but easy to do and it's then DRM-Free. I do this so that I can play my purchased music on my MP3-enabled CD player in the car or in my office at work. So the long and short of it is, iTunes content isn't only AAC DRM'd Files.
Hope that clears it up. Don't listen to the FUD put out by those who seem to feel threatened by it. iTunes is an excellent player/organizer in it's own right and doesn't need an iPod to work.
Re:Poster is a moron or a spin doctor. (Score:5, Insightful)
Ah, quite the contrary. Microsoft forces specific hardware manufacturers to only use Microsoft software.
If Microsoft could get WMA to catch on bigtime, here's what would happen:
The licensing cost for WMA technology would become so high that it would only be affordable when purchased at "OEM volume." Part of the discount would include requiremnents that players supporing WMA can't support other competing codecs like AAC or Real or (dare I say it... I dare!) Ogg Vorbis.
In other words, we would be limited to Microsoft-based file formats, Limited compatibility with non-Windows OS, DRM, and so on. You're trying to tell me that the bright side is that we could get a player from any number of manufacturers, and I'm telling you you're wearing glasses so rosy this Apple Lisa looks like a strawberry iMac.
This, my anonymous coward, is Microsoft's business strategy. It is called "embrace and extend."
They've "embraced" the mp3 player and are now trying to "extend" their Windows monopoly to include that piece of the hardware market. For this nut to turn, the demand for their entry at the pony show, the WMA format, has to be a hell of a lot stronger than it is now.
I will not speculate on how Microsoft might pull that off, however if anyone from Microsoft is listening I'm willing to demonstrate for a mere six figures.
Irony! (Score:5, Interesting)
Same with software. Software is targetted *toward* an OS; the operating system is (hardly) never written towards an application.
Microsoft has made a company from destroying competition, yet (ironically) a lot of software is targetted toward the MS-Windows operating system.
This is due mostly to Microsoft's early control of the hardware distribution chain. By controlling the software that was installed when there was very little choice, they have managed to lock out other software from being included today. Since that control translated to 90% desktop market share, other software companies felt they were safe targetting the MS-Windows platform.
Apple does not have a history of driving other software companies out of business by bundling their own software with their OS; Microsoft does have that reputation. So your comments are extremely ironic, and display a certain ignorance of history.
Re:Windows *is* about choice (Score:5, Insightful)
Truly, you've got it backward. Apple supports plenty of players [apple.com]. The manufacturers of some of those players and many others, on the other hand, don't support Apple. The upshot is that you can't do as much with those players as you can with a player that supports AAC and FairPlay.
You can still use iTunes with your Rio or whatever, to play MP3's that you've ripped from your own CD collection. You just can't use it to play music you've purchased from the iTunes Music Store.
This is all pretty understandable, as those manufacturers had to take a guess at which way the online music market would go. It looks like they might have got it wrong this time, but as soon as it's clear that that's the case, they'll jump to build AAC/FairPlay compatible devices. You can be sure that Creative Labs and the rest are not going to stand around looking stupid for too long while Apple and HP eat their lunch.