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Apple Shuns DRM Efforts So Far

Posted by michael on Wed Oct 02, 2002 11:37 AM
from the skin-deep dept.
Graff writes "This was found on SiliconValley.com. In an article for the Mercury News, Dan Gillmor talks about how Apple is still standing firm against the Digital Rights Management (DRM) efforts which the entertainment industry is trying to force on the public. There's also another article on the fight for our digital rights in Congress."
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  • by Jason Earl (1894) on Wednesday October 02 2002, @11:39AM (#4374228) Homepage

    Apple knows that as the little guy they have to actually make their users happy. DRM doesn't make for happy users, but "Rip, Mix, Burn" commercials do.

    • Re:Apple knows which side their bread is buttered by garcia (Score:2) Wednesday October 02 2002, @11:46AM
      • This is bigger than MP3's on iPod (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Golias (176380) on Wednesday October 02 2002, @12:01PM (#4374406)
        If you read the article, you would notice that the OS cheerfully lets you rip, image, and mount whole DVD's to your hard drive, so you can watch them on battery power without the added electrical drain of the disk player.

        Apple is setting themselves up as the computer to own if you want to work with multimedia, and installing DRM (which restricts fair use on a host of multimedia types) gets in the way of that vision.

        [ Parent ]
        • Re:This is bigger than MP3's on iPod (Score:5, Informative)

          by funwithstuff (555638) on Wednesday October 02 2002, @12:37PM (#4374781) Homepage

          If you read the article, you would notice that the OS cheerfully lets you rip, image, and mount whole DVD's to your hard drive, so you can watch them on battery power without the added electrical drain of the disk player.

          Not quite true. If you just copy the DVD by drag-and-drop, you'll probably have playback problems. (CSS and the disc name disagreeing?) Image the thing with Disk Copy and you should be fine.

          Alternatively, use a program like DVD Backup [wormintheapple.gr] to rip, DeCSS, de-region, and you're golden. Apple's DVD player will play it back just fine.

          Apple actually enabled this feature (in the last six months or so) so that their DVD Player app could play back DVDs that had just been created with their DVD Studio Pro package: pre-imaging, pre-burn, just sitting there loose on the hard drive. Apple is trying to make things easier for content creators, their traditional market, and a handy side-effect for everyone else is a non-DRM solution on the table.

          [ Parent ]
        • Re:This is bigger than MP3's on iPod by ultraslide (Score:2) Wednesday October 02 2002, @01:10PM
        • Re:This is bigger than MP3's on iPod by RAMMS+EIN (Score:2) Wednesday October 02 2002, @03:31PM
        • Re:This is bigger than MP3's on iPod by Johnny Mnemonic (Score:2) Wednesday October 02 2002, @04:25PM
      • by Jason Earl (1894) on Wednesday October 02 2002, @12:17PM (#4374565) Homepage

        Apple's real business is selling Macs, the iPod is simply a Mac accessory. They hope that cool toys like the iPod will sell more Macs. Of course, they make some money on the iPod itself, but not compared to selling computers. If DRM was good for their computer business they would dump the iPod faster than you could say "Newton."

        They want people to see the Mac as the platform for folks who are making their own cool mix CDs, and that are making their own movies. DRM would put kinks in these kinds of uses, and so Apple opposes DRM. Besides, they have seen the writing on the wall, a lot of people actually like getting on Kazaa (or whatever, I have never really gotten into P2P) and sharing music, videos, and other assorted files. For many people that is their primary reason for owning a computer. The last thing Apple wants is to be cut off from this market.

        [ Parent ]
        • Re:Apple knows which side their bread is buttered by BigBir3d (Score:2) Wednesday October 02 2002, @12:56PM
        • Economics applies... (Score:5, Insightful)

          by Inoshiro (71693) on Wednesday October 02 2002, @01:24PM (#4375217) Homepage
          "Of course, they make some money on the iPod itself, but not compared to selling computers."

          The margins on the iPod are likely much higher than the ones on the PC because you can get away with higher margins at lower prices. A lot of people see a candy bar for a dollar and will pay for it, even if the candy bar takes 5 or 10 cents to make. That's a 100-200% markup. Most retail stores need a 50% markup over costs of merchandise to cover expenses of staff and make a nice profit as well (after all, if you're not turning a profit, you are going out of business soon).

          The iPod has some plastic, a few chips, software, and a laptop HD. Total cost to Apple is probably 40 to 60% of the price of the device at the store because of their volume purchasing power. The store takes in maybe 10% of the price, the rest is divided between Apple and the company that ships things to stores.

          Ever notice how the 10gb and 20gb models are only a little bit apart (compared to the 5gb and 10gb models)? That's because they could probably sell the 20gb model for very close to the price (if not the same price as) the 10gb model and still make a profit similar to that of the 5gb model. The extra cost to them of making it a 20gb drive instead of a 10gb drive is small enough that they want to make it look more attractive to buy the 20gb version, because they make ~99% of the price difference between it and the 10gb model straight into their pockets. That's why FastFood places will "supersize" meals as well -- an extra 5-10 cents of cola and fries to gain an extra 60 cents of money is a very smart thing to do if you want more in your margins.

          What about computers? Computers aren't as simple, and the parts cost more overall. Most places have very, very slim margins and rely on economies of scale to give them a healthy profit margin. That is how Dell is so succesful(their margin is larger because you pay it all to them, with no $$ going to the stores or other middlemen). That's why VA systems got out of the computer hardware business --- teeny, tiny margins, even on server hardware. That's why Compaq and HP merged (slimmer margins mean more must be shipped). That is also why white-box computers flourish (speciality shops charge more, but give more in terms of selection and control). Electronics Boutique charges more than Wal-mart on games, but they have a much wider selection, and they will buy back used games (as well as sell used goods).

          So keep in mind that the iPod is a very smart move for Apple, not just a Mac accessory designed to push their computers. Just because something costs more, doesn't mean they're making more.
          [ Parent ]
      • Re:Apple knows which side their bread is buttered by reallocate (Score:2) Wednesday October 02 2002, @01:21PM
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • by tshak (173364) on Wednesday October 02 2002, @11:46AM (#4374282) Homepage
      Remember that Microsoft is the one that A) voted AGAINST legislation for DRM and B) has opted to make it a consumer choice as to whethor or not you want Windows to boot in "DRM" mode or not. If you're not in DRM mode, you simply can't play purchased digial music. Big deal - I'm not buying crippled music. However, you can still play all of your "insecure" MP3's and WMA's.
      [ Parent ]
    • Or maybe this is a calculated move? by Shnarf (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @11:46AM
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:Apple knows which side their bread is buttered by subgeek (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @11:46AM
    • by Red LaRoux (611360) on Wednesday October 02 2002, @01:12PM (#4375115)
      This whole DVD/CD/Video editing thing began back when Apple made a deal with CNN to provide all of their field reporters with a metal encased notebook computer that could edit high quality video in the field.

      Apple is very sensitive to both its own copyrights and such, remember the recycle/trash bin discussion and the lawsuits of the 1980s, but Apple was started by hardware freaks, and not software freaks. Steve knows the work-arounds are too easy, that's why Apple never really bothered with copy protected software in the first place.

      Bill Gates is focused on software, and since the mid 1970s he has been obsessed with preventing programmers, uh, oops, consumers from copying his programs bootleg style.

      This is a very old difference between these two camps. DVDs, CDs, digital media, whatever, for Steve it's all the same. Hardware has a much greater profit margin, and he wants to sell primarily hardware. See how much of the current i-Suite is bundled or downloadable free of charge?

      It's to drive the sales of hardware units.

      Sony and BMG have their own problems. BMG bought Napster to try to outrun this problem. But it's not Steve's problem.

      Even for his Pixar films, he controls the rights to the lucrative movie theatre sales. Again, to really see a movie, you have to have a large screen and a popcorn machine. Bill doesn't work that angle, Steve does. Steve makes his money without worrying if some kid is going to copy his digital wares, because he has already turned his profits.

      Let's not see Steve as an altruist, but simply someone who knows how to pick profitable models, that don't require unnatural market protections.

      Remember, DRM is not only a pain in the @$$, but they will also have to raise taxes to reinforce it with police and the courts. FUN. ;-(

      [ Parent ]
    • Re:Apple knows which side their bread is buttered by AKnightCowboy (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @02:12PM
    • Re:Apple knows which side their bread is buttered by ostiguy (Score:2) Wednesday October 02 2002, @03:35PM
    • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • Good for Apple! by ruiner13 (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @11:39AM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Yeah Duh (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Directrix1 (157787) on Wednesday October 02 2002, @11:41AM (#4374246)
    Of course, they are going to be against it. They've done a little research, seen that no consumer wants this, and refuse to implement it to gain ground with the average Joe nerd. I don't see why any of the hardware vendors are actually complying with DRM specs. They must be getting lots of um, "donations".
    • Re:Yeah Duh by Fascist Christ (Score:2) Wednesday October 02 2002, @12:34PM
      • Re:Yeah Duh by Herkum01 (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @07:34PM
        • Re:Yeah Duh by Fascist Christ (Score:1) Friday October 04 2002, @11:40AM
      • Re:Yeah Duh by Directrix1 (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @11:21PM
        • Re:Yeah Duh by pyrrho (Score:2) Wednesday October 02 2002, @11:36PM
          • Re:Yeah Duh by Directrix1 (Score:1) Thursday October 03 2002, @01:40PM
            • Re:Yeah Duh by Directrix1 (Score:1) Thursday October 03 2002, @02:00PM
              • Re:Yeah Duh by pyrrho (Score:1) Thursday October 03 2002, @03:51PM
              • Re:Yeah Duh by pyrrho (Score:1) Thursday October 03 2002, @04:03PM
              • Re:Yeah Duh by Directrix1 (Score:1) Thursday October 03 2002, @04:46PM
              • Re:Yeah Duh by Directrix1 (Score:1) Thursday October 03 2002, @05:03PM
              • Re:Yeah Duh by pyrrho (Score:1) Thursday October 03 2002, @05:10PM
              • Re:Yeah Duh by Directrix1 (Score:1) Thursday October 03 2002, @05:16PM
              • Re:Yeah Duh by Fascist Christ (Score:1) Friday October 04 2002, @09:19AM
              • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
            • Re:Yeah Duh by pyrrho (Score:1) Thursday October 03 2002, @03:36PM
              • Re:Yeah Duh by Directrix1 (Score:1) Thursday October 03 2002, @05:13PM
              • Re:Yeah Duh by pyrrho (Score:1) Thursday October 03 2002, @05:23PM
              • Re:Yeah Duh by Directrix1 (Score:1) Thursday October 03 2002, @05:34PM
            • Re:Yeah Duh by pyrrho (Score:1) Thursday October 03 2002, @03:39PM
              • Re:Yeah Duh by Directrix1 (Score:1) Thursday October 03 2002, @05:26PM
        • Re:Yeah Duh by Fascist Christ (Score:1) Thursday October 03 2002, @12:25PM
          • Re:Yeah Duh by Directrix1 (Score:1) Thursday October 03 2002, @01:47PM
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:Yeah Duh by silverhalide (Score:2) Wednesday October 02 2002, @01:36PM
      • Re:Yeah Duh by blitziod (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @03:45PM
      • Re:Yeah Duh by toddhisattva (Score:2) Wednesday October 02 2002, @05:03PM
    • God and SETI by SeanAhern (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @05:49PM
  • I'd image they would. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by FreeLinux (555387) on Wednesday October 02 2002, @11:42AM (#4374247)
    What's DRM going to do to iPod sales?

    Steve knows.
    • Re:I'd image they would. (Score:5, Informative)

      by dhovis (303725) on Wednesday October 02 2002, @12:16PM (#4374552)
      Actually, the thing about the iPod is that it does have DRM. It just has the right kind of DRM (from a consumer prospective). By default, the iPod will not sync with more than one computer at a time. It doesn't stop you from using an iPod to copy music from one computer to another, but Apple goes out of their way to avoid facilitating that sort of thing, without hindering it.

      In fact, the "don't steal music" sticker that comes on every iPod is probably the most effective anti-piracy measure you can take.

      You can expect to see this in the forthcoming version of iTunes that will let you share your MP3s with other people on your network. Apple has announced that it will only stream MP3s, and not copy them. As soon as the source server goes offline, so does the music.

      Apple does not want to incur the wrath of the RIAA, but they want to keep their users happy too. So they make their software so that it is easy to do the things that are definitely legal, but they don't put any roadblocks in the way of you doing anything that might be illegal and then leave it up to you to decide which is which.

      [ Parent ]
    • Re:I'd image they would. by MaxVlast (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @12:11PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • That settles it (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 02 2002, @11:42AM (#4374253)
    My next computer purchase is going to be a Mac.

    I'm sick and tired of the rest of the PC world bending over for psycho-bitch Hillary Rosen and her storm troopers at the RIAA, and I'm glad that Apple is giving the finger to Jack Valenti, a decrepit old combed-over hack that wouldn't know a dying business model if it crawled up his leg and bit him in the balls.

    Keep it up, Apple. You'll be getting my business from now on. Like-minded Slashdotters might consider doing the same. (It's not as if most of us are particularly dependent on the availability of Microsoft Windows-only apps anyway! And OS X is just tres cool.)
  • new switch ads... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Hugh Kir (162782) on Wednesday October 02 2002, @11:44AM (#4374263)
    "Then, one day, I tried to burn a mix CD on my PC, and it wouldn't let me. That's when I bought an Apple."

    Seriously, though, that's the best argument I've heard so far to buy a Mac.
  • Think Different by octalgirl (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @11:45AM
  • I can't wait! (Score:5, Funny)

    by GMontag (42283) <gmontag@@@guymontag...com> on Wednesday October 02 2002, @11:46AM (#4374278) Homepage Journal
    Finally, well, if Apple pisses the studios off enough, we will see some OTHER brand of computer in the movies besides Apple!

    Yes, I know about the "guest appearances" of SGI in "Twister" and others, but this may lead to more "reality" in my action movies. Like using a Cpmpaq to upload a virus to aliens ;-)
    • Surprised by Unknown Bovine Group (Score:2) Wednesday October 02 2002, @11:54AM
    • Re:I can't wait! by JoeBlows (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @01:07PM
    • Re:I can't wait! by El Neepo (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @01:15PM
    • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • obligatory slashdot comment by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @11:46AM
  • Missing the point by benedict (Score:2) Wednesday October 02 2002, @11:46AM
  • I can't wait... (Score:5, Funny)

    by Kissing Crimson (197314) <jonesy@@@crimsonshade...com> on Wednesday October 02 2002, @11:48AM (#4374296) Homepage
    ... to see the day when (non-IT) people say, "You're running Windows?! Why would you want that? You can't do anything with that!"
  • They're finally doing SOMETHING right! by mustangdavis (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @11:48AM
  • What about Pixar? by C. Mattix (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @11:48AM
  • A serious question by TrollBridge (Score:2) Wednesday October 02 2002, @11:49AM
  • What do you expect? by nenolod (Score:2) Wednesday October 02 2002, @11:49AM
  • This guy's got it right... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by rsborg (111459) on Wednesday October 02 2002, @11:50AM (#4374316) Homepage
    It would be more accurate to call DRM, in that context, ``Digital Restrictions Management.''

    Finally, someone who understands and uses the appropriate name for this monstrosity.

  • Open Letter to any apple employees: (Score:5, Interesting)

    by bravehamster (44836) on Wednesday October 02 2002, @11:50AM (#4374317) Homepage Journal
    Dear Sirs/Ma'am's:

    I'm writing this message to applaud your stand against the ironically named Digital Rights Management efforts of the MPAA and RIAA. I was wavering on my next computer purchase, trying to decide between building my own system and purchasing an Apple computer. Because of your stand, you have won both my current purchase and my loyalty. I have many acquaintances who depend on me for computer advice, and I will be sending them your way. Regardless of your motives for doing this, I shall not forget your defense of basic consumer rights any time soon.

    Respectfully,

    A Future loyal customer.

  • Email them and tell them (Score:3, Insightful)

    by browser_war_pow (100778) on Wednesday October 02 2002, @11:51AM (#4374327) Homepage
    Hi, I'm an Apple customer and I think that Apple's refusal to support DRM initatives is great! It's one of the main reasons why I'm an Apple customer now. To me, it is one of the things that makes Apple stand up above the rest of personal computer manufacturers and as long as Apple takes this approach I'll be a loyal Apple customer. I'm a convert from the PC world and I hope that Apple continues to take the stance that it has on DRM technologies.

    Apple's marketting people may not know what DRM is, but they'll know that not supporting it is a good thing in the eyes of a lot of customers. Telling them you're a convert will also add more to it as it will say, "I took the plunge." That is what they want/need to hear. Converts are far more likely to get more people to convert than existing users. If they alienate their converts and they go back over to say... RedHat on Opteron (later on) then they've just shot themselves in the foot and Apple doesn't want that.
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • We Shall See (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Sloppy (14984) on Wednesday October 02 2002, @11:51AM (#4374334) Homepage Journal
    When 85% of the market is using Palladium and the movie and music guys can confidently release their stuff exclusively in a proprietary format for which players only exist for trusted platforms, then we'll really see if Apple really has balls.

    One of these two things will happen:

    1. They'll cave in to customer demand to be compatable with the "mainstream" media. This is what I expect to happen.
    2. They will tell people
      "Sorry, your Britney CD isn't Mac compatable. You should have known better than to buy RIAA crap. Go buy from imported metal CDs instead."
      or
      "The disk you have inserted is the DVD-NG format which is not Mac compatable. Throw it away and download a movie from an indy moviemaker instead."
      I don't think there's a snowball's chance that Apple will do this. But if they do -- damn, I'll be impressed.
    • Re:We Shall See by Sloppy (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @11:54AM
    • Re:We Shall See by sulli (Score:2) Wednesday October 02 2002, @12:06PM
      • It has happened before by yerricde (Score:2) Wednesday October 02 2002, @12:44PM
      • by marm (144733) on Wednesday October 02 2002, @02:03PM (#4375528)

        The day CD-DA disappears because "everyone" has magically switched to Windows Media, I will eat my hat.

        Sure, I mean this isn't the industry that forced us all to transition to LP's from 78's, or that convinced us to rebuy all our music on cassette after that, and then 20 years ago convinced us all to upgrade all our music to CD again. Is it?

        Tried getting hold of any mainstream music on vinyl recently? Even cassettes are pretty hard to find now, and the sound and cassette assembly quality of pre-recorded cassettes is at an all-time low. Of course, you probably don't notice this, because chances are, you buy everything on CD.

        The content industry has proved at least 3 times that it knows exactly how to get us all to upgrade our media formats, whether we like it or not: the transition from LP to cassette was in all sorts of ways a step backwards, but it still happened. Cassettes didn't last too long in the mainstream either, because they allowed you to record. The content providers pushed for a more desirable format, and up popped CD, which you could only copy to analogue cassette for the first 15 years of its life or so, significantly downgrading the quality.

        Today we face a situation fairly similar to how things were in 1981 or thereabouts: a recordable, fairly open format (Then: cassette, Now: MP3/Ogg) is going mainstream, and is slowly killing off an older, more cumbersome, more expensive but arguably better-sounding format (Then: LP, Now: CD). The content industry is unhappy about this, because they feel that the recordability/copyability of the newer format is going to affect their bottom line. So they lobby for new laws in the US (Then: 1976 Copyright Act, Now: 1998 DMCA) to give them some legal standing, and to enable them to clamp down on those encouraging copying, and then they push for a new, virtually uncopyable format (Then: CD, Now: Windows Media/Palladium) with their technology partners (Then: Sony/Philips, Now: Microsoft/Intel/AMD). The new format has benefits for the consumer (Then: better sound quality and robustness, Now: no more trudging round music shops - entire catalogues available for easy download, all with pristine encoding and no blatant P2P spyware/stealware included).

        The parallels are stark, and it only took 10 years for CD to dominate and for other formats to start dying, niche markets aside. If the content industry and Microsoft gets the marketing right, I fully expect exactly the same to happen with WM/Palladium - it will come to dominate in 10 years and CD will die.

        The situation isn't entirely identical - the evolution of digital technology has made the stakes higher for both content provider (free P2P distribution is their worst nightmare) and consumer (breaking strong encryption on trusted systems seems a lot harder than simply waiting for recordable CD technology to become available and affordable). So you can expect much more of a battle than was the case with CDs. Nonetheless, I still expect the content industry to win this one - they are the ones with all the strings to pull. We don't have to let them walk all over us though - if we make noise now, we should be able to at least get some concessions towards fair use. If we shout loud enough, there is still the outside possibility that we can kill it dead.

        However, if you simply sit tight and see what happens, maybe buying a Mac rather than a PC in a token gesture, then I hope you've got lube and an unwanted hat (not a red fedora by any chance?) because you'll be bending right over for the content industry and you'd better be hungry.

        [ Parent ]
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:We Shall See by Jobe_br (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @12:18PM
    • Re:We Shall See by geekoid (Score:2) Wednesday October 02 2002, @12:34PM
    • Re:We Shall See by reptilicus (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @12:43PM
    • When 85% of the market is using Palladium... by dpilot (Score:2) Wednesday October 02 2002, @01:02PM
    • Re:We Shall See by rworne (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @01:07PM
    • Re:We Shall See by SatanicPuppy (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @01:32PM
    • Re:We Shall See by Josuah (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @03:45PM
    • Careful you might lose your listeners liscence by TwitchCHNO (Score:1) Friday October 04 2002, @06:18AM
    • Re:We Shall See by MoneyT (Score:2) Sunday October 06 2002, @12:01AM
    • Re:We Shall See by Alex Thorpe (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @03:20PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Linux by AlgUSF (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @11:52AM
    • Re:Linux by jbolden (Score:2) Wednesday October 02 2002, @02:24PM
  • by TheFrood (163934) on Wednesday October 02 2002, @11:52AM (#4374337) Homepage Journal
    There's also another article on the fight for our digital rights in Congress.

    You gotta fight... for our digital rights... in Connnnnn-gress!

    TheFrood
  • It all boils down to... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by MoxCamel (20484) on Wednesday October 02 2002, @11:52AM (#4374338)
    Trust.

    Intel, AMD, and Microsoft basically believe that we are untrustworthy until proven trustworthy. Even when we prove it, it's only for that exchange.

    Apple believes their customers are trustworthy.

    Which company would you rather do business with?

    Mox
    • Re:It all boils down to... by Deltan (Score:3) Wednesday October 02 2002, @12:11PM
    • Re:It all boils down to... by foobar104 (Score:2) Wednesday October 02 2002, @12:12PM
      • Re:It all boils down to... (Score:5, Insightful)

        by MoxCamel (20484) on Wednesday October 02 2002, @12:30PM (#4374699)
        You're correct, there are many individuals out there who choose to abuse "trust." However, I resent the assumption made by Hollywood, et al that I'm untrustworthy except when I can prove it beyond a doubt.

        Imagine this kind of thinking in other industries:

        - Airlines handcuff you to your seat, unless you can prove that you've gone through some rigid (and expensive) background investigation.

        - Retail stores escort you around the store while you do your shopping, and frisk you on your way out.

        - The state requires you to submit to a breathalizer test every time you get behind the wheel of your car.

        Society is based to a large degree on trust. Everytime you leave your house, you trust the police to keep you safe. You trust your employer to make the right decisions to keep you employed. You trust your babysitter not to murder your children while you're out taking in dinner and a movie.

        Sometimes this trust is broken. Yet we, as a society, continue to thrive under a model of trust. This seems to work, for the most part. Why change it so drastically?

        Mox
        [ Parent ]
      • Re:It all boils down to... by forgotmypassword (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @06:09PM
    • Re:It all boils down to... by Jobe_br (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @12:22PM
    • Re:It all boils down to ++ by Lysol (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @01:45PM
    • Re:It all boils down to... by 3Bees (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @03:25PM
    • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • Guess I made the right decision by Hamshrew (Score:2) Wednesday October 02 2002, @11:54AM
  • I need to try this (Score:5, Informative)

    by HughsOnFirst (174255) on Wednesday October 02 2002, @11:55AM (#4374362)
    In Dan Gillmor's column he says

    "I recently discovered that Apple's DVD Player software, which came with my Powerbook G4 laptop, gives me flexibility in a way I hadn't expected. Sometimes I like to watch a movie while I'm on a plane, but the DVD drive in my machine drains my battery too quickly. So before I leave home, I copy a movie -- note to Hollywood: I do not do this with rental DVDs, only ones I own -- to my hard disk. The DVD Player software reads it from the disk, which uses less power than the DVD drive."

    That is pretty interesting. I wish it would fast forward over the ads
    • or by Lysander Luddite (Score:2) Wednesday October 02 2002, @09:18PM
    • Re:I need to try this by HughsOnFirst (Score:2) Wednesday October 02 2002, @01:21PM
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • 4 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • food for thought.... by KillerBob (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @11:56AM
  • DRM? No thanks. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by SeanWithoutPants (593762) on Wednesday October 02 2002, @11:58AM (#4374389)
    Should DRM become so bad that users can't do some of the most basic actions that would fall under fair use, I really think Apple would be missing a major opportunity if they did not start advertising their lack of DRM. As long as Joe Average knows that not every platform restricts you in such a way, there will be a strong temptation to switch.

    "Step 1: Insert CD

    Step 2: Click import

    Step 3: There is no step 3..."

    Like I said in one of the previous articles, I think that the only way Apple would include DRM is if they become legally required to, or are forced into a situation by the entertainment industry that could cut Apple's users out of the picture...that is if they were to only release material in a DRM approved format. Now I know that there would be computer saavy folk who can work around the DRM, but Apple's average user won't. (heh, unless that simply requires a magic marker) :)

    Regards,
    Sean
  • yeah! apple! by zloppy303 (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @12:00PM
  • Its obvious WHY Apple has this 'position' by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @12:01PM
  • Steve Jobs is for fair use (Score:5, Informative)

    by romanval (556418) on Wednesday October 02 2002, @12:01PM (#4374416)
    As seen in this old arstechnica thread: http://arstechnica.infopop.net/OpenTopic/page?q=Y& a=tpc&s=50009562&f=48409524&m=6600908815&p =1 It refs a CNN Headline news interview with Steve Jobs (no longer online). Thankfully from ars we have a few quotes straight from the horses mouth: "We love music, and we absolutely believe that people shouldn't steal music," Jobs said. "But we also believe that if they buy it, they should have rights to put that music on their computers, to burn CDs and to put it on their portable music players. You know, people equate burning CDs with theft. Most of the time it's not. Burning CDs means you want custom compilations." Jobs said he believes that consumers haven't been given the chance yet to download legally. Once they are presented that option, he said it will become the standard for digital music rights management. Jobs also said he thinks the Hollings bill won't make a difference in the debate. The digital genie escaped from the bottle long ago, and a technology solution is impossible, he said. "In other words, with the advent of the Internet which has caused this problem in the first place, it only takes one thief anywhere in the world to crack a copy protection scheme and put a copy on the Internet for everybody else in the world to get. It's never going to work," Jobs said. "What's going to work is things to keep honest people honest and great alternatives for honest people that are more convenient and even better than what they can get for free on the Internet, at reasonable prices. People want to be honest." Kind of a bally position to take considering he's content provider himself!
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Now we know why "macs suck" by rickthewizkid (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @12:01PM
  • Yay for corporations! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Longinus (601448) on Wednesday October 02 2002, @12:04PM (#4374434) Homepage
    I suppose I'm glad that Apple isn't implementing DRM into their products, but this is simply a strategic business move, not some brave defense of our rights. Believe me, if they stood to benefit financially from DRM, it would be there (and very may well be in the future).

    Before we all have to endure the ensuing "Apple cares about us!" and "Yay for Apple!" posts, just remember that Apple does not equal freedom. Free, open source software does.

    Apple, Inc. does not care about you or I, in fact, no ones gives a shit about you or I, so take control yourself by using, developing for, and advancing Linux. If you don't like having others make your choices, start making your own.
  • Damn right. by sulli (Score:2) Wednesday October 02 2002, @12:04PM
  • One day Apple is lauded for bringing unix to the masses.

    The next they're hated for keeping Aqua closed.

    A week later, they're lauded once again for making development tools free.

    Then they're hated for pushing specific look and feel.

    They're loved again for ignoring DRM pressure.

    But only a day before, they're scoffed at for keeping people out of the GUI cusstomization business.

    And to top it all off, they're even disliked for having a monopoly in their own segment.

    Either Apple doesn't know what one hand is doing while the other isn't looking, or we're a bunch of really fickle damn people. With me, it's come down to a comparison between Apple, Microsoft and Linux on the areas of usability, who has whose best interests in mind, and price.

    Apple is by far the most usable. Bar none. Linux may have more uses, and Microsoft owns the market. But neither Linux or Microsoft actually seem to develop intuitive interfaces and software that Just Works.

    Apple is only slightly more expensive than a comparable PC. Your typical linux box is kludged together from parts and duct tape, or built significantly cheaper from new parts. Linux wins this hands down, but is it enough?

    But the real key is the question of who has whose best interests in mind. There's no debating the fact that Bill Gates wants your first born. MS EULAs are so easy to find fault with that it's become a hobby here. Microsoft wants to control your computer and accepts no responsibility when things break. Linux is all about freedom, your software, your gear, your control. Great in theory, but things just -break- on Linux as soon as you start installing post-distribution software unless IT is your life. Great for professional IT guys, but Linux seems to continue failing to make mom and dad comfortable.

    Steve Jobs on the other hand, is a very odd type. He wants things his way, but he's utterly convinced it's' because it's better for everyone else. And oddly enough, he's usually not too far off. Apple makes their entire reputation based on making the system something anyone can get into and take the reins of. With XServe, they're on track to some badly needed credibility in the IT segment. They might be a scary monopolistic bunch in some pretty noticable ways, but despite it, they've got the best system for anyone.

    I wish I were of enough stature to suggest a truce. I'd suggest this. Apple should open up the interface for a bit more customization, expose the API's and maybe work in some kind of X11/Aqua hybrid feature so X11 applications can run on Aqua without extensive modification to the Aqua look and feel. In exchange for this, Open Source advocates can shut up about how Apple isn't entirely Open Source, and accept the fact that Apple's survival counts on them having the exclusive control of their own interface.

    Sound fair?
  • Trolling or karma whoring ... you decide. by jolshefsky (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @12:09PM
  • Don't delude yourselves. by tempest303 (Score:2) Wednesday October 02 2002, @12:12PM
    • Re:Don't delude yourselves. by geekoid (Score:2) Wednesday October 02 2002, @12:48PM
    • Re:Don't delude yourselves. by Fnkmaster (Score:3) Wednesday October 02 2002, @12:57PM
    • Re: Does it matter? by Choco-man (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @01:08PM
    • Who cares? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Dephex Twin (416238) on Wednesday October 02 2002, @01:08PM (#4375081) Homepage
      This is fairly ridiculous.

      Yes, Apple is a business. The business isn't there to make us happy and protect our rights. However, it does happen to believe that doing these two things is in the company's best financial interests. So they are doing great things such as this shunning of the DRM. Why does it make a difference if Apple is doing this out of love for humanity or because it just makes sense? It doesn't change the fact that it is a Good Thing, and seems to be a trend with Apple these days.

      It's just like with legislation. If our Congressmen voted against DRM, I wouldn't care if it was purely out of the desire for votes in their next election and didn't care a whit about actually helping people. So long as they are motivated to do the best thing for the people.

      If you found out some major app or utility for Linux was made by a programmer who didn't give a crap about freedom or rights, but just wanted to have that app for free (read: motivated by money), would you discourage people from using it?
      [ Parent ]
      • Re:Who cares? by tempest303 (Score:2) Wednesday October 02 2002, @01:37PM
    • Re:Don't delude yourselves. by thatguywhoiam (Score:2) Wednesday October 02 2002, @02:02PM
    • Wrong - Apple is what Jobs believes. (Score:4, Insightful)

      by SuperKendall (25149) on Wednesday October 02 2002, @02:51PM (#4375962)
      What Apple is really doing is sticking up for what Jobs believes in, which happes to be that DRM is a bad idea for consumers and for companies.

      Some companies are basically giant extensions of a leaders personality. I would argue Apple is such a company, as is MS, as is Oracle, and to a lesser extent, Sun.

      Your argument that Microsoft can "afford" to do this so they do, is silly. Why would any company do something if they knew it would hurt them? MS does it because Bill Gates believes in this stuff, just as Apple thinks it's stupid so they don't.

      Just think of it as a giant war fought with huge robots ala Anime, except that the robots are replaced by companies. That's exactly what we are in the middle of, and you should be damn thankful that one of the giant robots is protecting the peasants instead of firing giant fricking lasers at the Barn of Rights where all the Animals of Freedom are housed.
      [ Parent ]
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • OSXCON panel on DRM and the Digital Hub by mouthbeef (Score:2) Wednesday October 02 2002, @12:13PM
  • Save Money on Customer Support! by mikeboone (Score:2) Wednesday October 02 2002, @12:14PM
  • a startegy suggestion for apple by minus_273 (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @12:21PM
  • lol by Archfeld (Score:2) Wednesday October 02 2002, @12:25PM
  • Here's hope by dmanny (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @12:26PM
  • by 3seas (184403) on Wednesday October 02 2002, @12:38PM (#4374787) Homepage Journal
    DRM and such in effect really create a different product line. One that is more constrained then what we all have come to understand is the highly versatile power of "computers".

    Incorporating DRM and such constraining technology
    is to create a lessor in versatility product line.

    There is a real and notable difference in such product lines. The DRM being closer to a consumer appliance then a computer.

    It is outright FRAUD being directed at the consumers to deceive the consumers into thinking these two different product lines are one and the same, which they are in fact not.

    Further more it is slanderious, libelious and inherently defamation of consumer character to base the proved false need for the incorporation of such constraning technology on the false claim that consumers are theives.

    I have no problem with hose who want to create and sell such a product line inclusive of DRM and such. Nor do I have a problem with those who produce works only accessable by such DRM oriented devices.

    What I have a problem with is the very clear intent to subvert consumer choice and free enterprise thru acts of deception and collusion on the part of industry and Government.

    There are now two clearly different product lines.
    One constrained by DRM based and like technology and the other not.

    Knowing this is the first step towards properly addressing the deceivers and colluders.

  • How much time untill... by arestivo (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @12:47PM
  • Remember - it's spelled DRM (Score:4, Interesting)

    by cats-paw (34890) on Wednesday October 02 2002, @12:53PM (#4374950) Homepage
    but it's pronounced Digital RESTRICTIONS Management.

    I'm not sure who originated the term, I first saw it attributed to RMS.

    Digital Rights Management is total Orwellian double-speak.
  • It's a simple question of economics by kris2112 (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @12:55PM
  • DRM haiku by rattler14 (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @01:00PM
  • DRM can help the little guy by raque (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @01:02PM
  • At least until a possible marriage with Intel by Panzergheist (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @01:04PM
  • DRM - what it is (and what it is not) by OeLeWaPpErKe (Score:2) Wednesday October 02 2002, @01:17PM
  • Top 11 Rejected Slogans for Palladium by bizitch (Score:2) Wednesday October 02 2002, @01:27PM
  • All this talk..... by nyseal (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @01:28PM
  • never been an Apple Fan by meatspray (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @01:30PM
  • a question by benedict (Score:2) Wednesday October 02 2002, @01:31PM
  • THANK YOU, APPLE! by UrGeek (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @01:37PM
  • In other news... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by IamTheRealMike (537420) on Wednesday October 02 2002, @01:50PM (#4375437) Homepage
    RedHat announce that they won't have DRM in their OS anytime soon.

    Not to be left behind, all the other distros made similar proclamations, except Debian, which is late and expected to follow suit sometime next year.

    Pretty shortly, the OS/2 development team will make a similar announcement, as will the FreeBSD teams, as will the QNX team, as will that guy down the road who wrote his own OS in assembler.

    ..... seriously, get a grip guys. Firstly, Palladium is so far vapourware. I haven't seen a Palladium computer. Have you?

    Secondly, this is a non story. Apple HAVEN'T made an announcement! Incredible. I haven't made an announcement today either, can I get a story on slashdot? In fact, the ONLY people who have announced their intention to support DRM are the one company that do in fact have a monopoly and can therefore do such an unpopular thing.

    Finally, all those people who've posted things like "Wow, Apple you are clearly sticking up for my rights, I'll buy a Mac" are talking rubbish. Apple are famous for abusing the legal system whenever it suits them. They are a corporation, and know all about legal pressure points. If it turns out that this mystical all encompassing DRM strategy isn't working because the pirates are using Macs, then the RIAA will have a quick chat with Jobs, who will see where his best interests lie, and bingo suddenly QuickTime has DRM.

    There is in fact only 1 type of OS that will never have DRM, guaranteed. Say no more.

  • Gotta love Jack... (Score:3, Funny)

    by kenthorvath (225950) on Wednesday October 02 2002, @02:04PM (#4375547)
    In response to a proposed bill that would ammend the DMCA to allow people to make personal copies of digital media:

    ``If this bill were to pass, it would render ineffective, worthless and useless any protection measure we would have in place to protect a $100 million movie,'' Jack Valenti, president of the Motion Picture Association of America, said of the Lofgren bill. ``You could download a million movies a day, and no penalty for it.''

    Somehow I doubt that I could download a million movies a day. But I would love to see what kind of internet connection he has!

  • Well I'm glad... by Hott of the World (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @02:17PM
  • Past ad campaign by randomErr (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @02:33PM
  • DRM with the upcoming HP/MS Media PC is a joke by afantee (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @03:26PM
  • Apple knows who their paying customers are by AnalogDiehard (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @03:43PM
  • Creating/destroying by CatPieMan (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @04:03PM
  • Apple Should Release OS X for x86 ASAP by Centinel (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @04:50PM
  • marketshare... by dgott (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @04:52PM
  • wweell, apple sounds (IMO) in this case better... by danalien (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @05:35PM
  • WRONG by Polo (Score:2) Wednesday October 02 2002, @06:21PM
    • Re:WRONG by Polo (Score:2) Wednesday October 02 2002, @06:33PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Apple will be left behind by geekee (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @06:49PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • I don't like the Apple UI by The Raven (Score:2) Wednesday October 02 2002, @09:54PM
  • Obligatory 1984 Reference by Erik K. Veland (Score:1) Thursday October 03 2002, @02:13AM
  • Re:Apple iDRM is NEXT... by krray (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @12:09PM
  • Re:Apple DRM by MaxVlast (Score:2) Wednesday October 02 2002, @12:27PM
  • LOGIC POLICE TO THE RESCUE! by Marc2k (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @12:32PM
  • Re:The future by Tablizer (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @01:25PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Re:The future by Elwood P Dowd (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @01:56PM
    • Re:The future by Elwood P Dowd (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @05:41PM
  • Re:yet another by ECXStar (Score:1) Wednesday October 02 2002, @03:48PM
  • Re:Apple DRM by HughsOnFirst (Score:2) Thursday October 03 2002, @10:13AM
  • 22 replies beneath your current threshold.