Interview: Ask Steve Wozniak

Since you're reading Slashdot, there's approximately a 100% chance that you know who Steve Wozniak is and why so many of us consider him to be a Geek God in whose shadow all others dwell. Before you start asking him questions, though, please take a look at his personal Web site, which already answers most of the obvious stuff. Then ask away. All questions must be asked and moderated by noon (EST) Tuesday. Woz's answers to the selected questions will appear Friday.

Hardware specs

Do you ever think that hardware companies will open up their board specs again, in the way you were free with the early Apple computers?

Or, with the increasing silicon integration, is it more important for hardware manufacturers just to write open source drivers?

stupid question, and here's why

very, very simple answer, and obvious to anyone who knows anything on the subject.

apple's whole preemptive multitasking/protected memory/etc. issue, and the fact they are not there in OS 9, has nothing to do with a "focus on interface issues". It is because, quite simply, of compatibility. Apple has been working their asses off in the software department for YEARS to solve this problem.

The problem stems from the fact that the mac os began as a single-program OS-- which, you may note, it's competitor (DOS) at the time was. The ability to run more than one program at once was retrofitted in later, through multifinder, switcher, System 6, etc. As a result, the methods of coopertaive multitasking, etc., were adopted.

It turns out that it is extremely difficult to change these methods without breaking every program ever written.
Remember the mac os's biggest problem: software support. isn't a lot of software support out there; apple has a lot of trouble attracting developers. totally destroying all existing software is osmething it's difficult for them to do. Microsoft can do that, since the developers need MS [and, thus, access to 90% of the market] and not the other way around.

Ever heard of copland? Apple had a working next-gen (technically up there with the Unices) OS at about the time of the birth of BeOS and the time Mike Spindler (also known as the Source of All Evil in the Universe) was fired. apple got this OS to a usable point, and proceeded to spend at least a year working on making it compatible with the earlier Mac OSes. They failed miserably.

In the meantime of this, apple released a number of things which, in a technical sense, were truly revoloutionary. Opendoc, cyberdog, Quickdraw 3D, Quickdraw GX. These things all failed miserably, and this is not because apple "failed to keep up on technical issues". They failed merely because of marketing problems, and apple's bad habit from the time of releasing software before it's ready, then hyping it a LOT, then getting everyone exposed to a non-working 1.0 version, then after everyone's soured to it and started totally ignoring it, THEN they release a working version. And once the working version comes along, apple marketing would simply ignore it, assuming people didn't care anymore. this is, btw, basically what killed the newton. If OpenDoc had succeeded, the world would be a very different place now.

Eventually Apple scrapped Copland and started over with Rhapsody/Mac OS X. Apple has been working nonstop on this in the software department since Steve Jobs came. They have been doing almost nothing else; they have been performing miracles. What the result of this is is that in a couple of months, apple is going to release an OS with NO INTERFACE IMPROVEMENTS. (unless you count the fact it will be possible to add on a BSD command line interface and run the GNU tools..) The change from OS 9 to OS X will have _nothing_ to do with "interface issues". Technical issues are the ONLY point of this upgrade, and this is the upgrade apple has been working toward with all their resources for about four or five years now. Doesn't sound like they've more focused on "pretty boxes" to me.
And as to compatibility, note that apple _gave up_. The reason that OS X will be compatible with pre-OS-X software is that apple has wound up writing a hardware abstraction layer type thing, more or less the same thing as WINE. ("emulator" is the wrong word)

Note that in the meantime Apple has "technically" improved the Mac OS in every way possible without making that crucial shift into preemptive multitasking and protected memory. They've made the Finder (mac file manager) threaded; they've rewritten Appletalk to work as TCP/IP; and so on.

And thta one crucial shift--preemptive multitasking/protected memory-- is something Microsoft hasn't managed to do yet. When OS X comes out, microsoft will have yet to have released a "modern" consumer OS. They will have windows 2000, yes, but last i heard it will not be targeted at consumers-- it will be targeted at everyone who was buying NT before. It will be targeted as a server, and for businesses, and for the kind of people who read Slashdot. Meanwhile the consumers will be fed "widnows millenium", or something. whatever it is it will still have teh 9x kernel.

As for "pretty boxes"-- i assume you mean the imac-- note that pretty boxes are the only strategy apple's located that works. Apple has been producing technically superior hardware for years, and what was it that finally started selling this hardware? Certainly not the technical aspects of the hardware. The G3 is amazing for its time, but so was the 604e. No, the pretty boxes are what is making ALL of apple's money, not the highly advanced state of the inside of the case. That and advertising. It's like Prodigy; they release a very good, revoloutionary techno album, and nobody buys it; then Keith Flint gets a bad haircut and starts wearing eyeshadow for the second very good, revoloutionary techno album, and they get on MTV and sell a quadrillion records. If "pretty boxes" are the only things making apple money, you should be amazed they're paying attention to technical issues at all.

I don't know where this viewpoint comes from that because apple pays attention to interface issues and strives to create a consistent, usable user interface, that means that they don't care about technical issues. Apple _does_ work on the technical underpinnings, and if the only thing you see is the GUI, well, that's because the GUI is all you're willing to look at.

-mcc-baka
INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY IS TEHFT

future of computing

Woz-

Where do you think the future of computing is heading (ie. Thin clients run from ISP's over high speed internet connections, or the way it is heading now with bigger, faster, and more expensive computers)

Technology and the K12 Teacher...

Having worked in education for years, I've seen one fourth grade classroom with a teacher into technology integrate it into the daily curriculum while across the hall, another teacher refuses to even turn on the machines in their room because they don't know (and don't *want* to know) how to use them.

How can we address the wild variations in technology knowledge among K-12 teachers?

Visible Hardware

I recall reading a biography written about you a while back; however, I don't recall what the title was, but it was published in the early to mid-80's. It may have been something like "The Making of Woz."

Throughout the book, little bits and pieces of your personality were described. I found this incredibly entertaining, because your high school years sound very similar to what my high school life is like. (I'm a Senior this year.) Everything from your pranks to your apathy about unimportant things, to your zeal for geeky things is me. I was greatly encouraged by your early-life story. Question: Also in this book, I recall that it said you've always liked to have the hardware of a system exposed for viewing, somewhat similar to an art display. I recall that you were obstinate when Apple started putting cases on your computers. Are you still of this opinion, that hardware is better viewed for this reason? Do you think that your preferance may have somehow survived and made it's way into the design for the iMac?

-------
CAIMLAS

Changes in Education

Steve,
You've been involved with computers in the class room and bringing computer-related technologies to schools long enough now to seem some of the first students you worked with graduate and go on to college and careers.

How much of a difference do you think technology learning has made for these kids?

What have *you* learned about teaching technology to kids as a result of fostering this process that hasn't yet clicked with mainstream educators?

How do you see current schools and administrations bridging the technology gap between traditional (low tech) classes and curricula and where you'd like to see things?

Deep Hacking

Steve:

I'll never forget my first encounter with the Apple ][ computer. In 1979, as a college sophomore working at a summer job for NASA, I adapted a $4,000 Apple ][ to control a Varian Auger spectrometer, creating the very first scanning Auger spectrometer. My idea of grafting an inexpensive personal computer into a $500,000 piece of equipment that took up half of a room was greeted with some trepidation by the scientists, but I convinced them that we could switch my interface off and return the equipment to normal if it didn't work. Fortunately, the contraption did work (though all of the software wasn't finished by the end of the summer), and we had a true technological advance which is still a useful analytical tool today.

Anyway, in the course of my labors, I ran into a technical glitch and called Apple for help. Dan Kottke answered the phone, and I told him that I thought I'd found a bug in the ROM. (Note: The Apple ][, for those who never saw the manuals, came with complete, commented source code for the internal ROMs. The code wasn't free for anyone to use, and justifiably so; they were the product of a brilliant mind and who knows how many hours of work. However, the source made a great reference for me and many others.)

"Yes, Woz was just talking about that," Dan replied.

"What was?" I asked innocently.

"Woz was," said Dan.

"Oh," I replied. (After mentally trying several different parsings of this last statement I finally realized that "Woz" must be someone's name.... The modest Mr. Wozniak had only put his name in a few places in the assembly language code, so I didn't spot it there until later.)

We went on to discuss how to work around the bug. I was very impressed by this.... Today, the notion of being able to get someone who's technically knowledgeable about a product -- especially at the assembly language level -- on the phone is almost unbelievable.

But those were the days of what I consider to be "true hacking" -- sweating for hours to implement one's ideas in the smallest possible number of logic gates or opcodes. I was very impressed by the small number of gates in the disk drive's group encoder and the subtle software that made it work.

Which brings me to my question. Nowadays, few people -- even those who call themselves "hackers" -- are capable of hacking on that level. "Hello world" programs take up hundreds of thousands of bytes... and if a project requires analog circuit design -- as a blue box did -- forget it!

Do you think there's still a place in the world for the old school hacker who can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear? For the assembly language programmer who can do in 100 bytes what others do in 100,000? Or are those days of true craftsmanship gone forever?

--Brett Glass

Question for the Woz

Steve,

Two questions for you (I've been dying to ask these for a while.)

First, in the Newsweek article "How we Failed at Apple" you said the following:

"The company's strategy was. Apple saw itself as a hardware company; in order to protect our hardware profits, we didn't license our operating system. We had the most beautiful operating system, but to get it you had to buy our hardware at twice the price."

Apple still today holds very very tight restrictions third party producers yet is succeeding - partially because prices for Apple systems is now much cheaper relative to market cost. In general though Apple as a company still behaves much the same as it did in 1984. Do you believe Apples continued restrictions on third party use of MacOS will spell trouble long term for Apple?

Secondly, when Microsoft was declared a monopoly a few months ago you had a posting to your website that included an analogy between car companies and Monopoly power. If I remember correctly the analogy basically came down to the idea of car companies owning the gasoline companies and requiring drivers to buy gas from only them - hence they could set the price on the gas.

This however is also a perfect analogy for how Apple behaves with respect to their hardware and software. If Apple had succeeded, today we would be in a world where we would have absolutly no choices in reguards to what hardware we purchaced (much like now we have little choice as to what operating system software is bundeled with our hardware.) If/when Apple becomes a very dominate player in the computer industry, how would you justify Apples continued control on hardware before the DOJ?

Thanks!

j

Where do you think tech is heading

There's a lot of polarity in technology today. One can almost summarize this as Mac's Ease of Use vs. Linux's Ability to Harness the Power of Technology in its (nearly) Pure Form. Where do you see this polarization heading. Can the two ever be wedded together (i.e. can Linux ever be made user-friendly enough for the masses or the can the Mac overcome its legacy architecture and step ahead of the pack technologically?)

In your experience, has this polarity always existed or is it a more recent phenomenon? As one of the founders of what was to become the premier company specializing in one end of this extreme, I'd like to hear your thought on this. Also, can this polarity ultimately help innovation or hurt it?

I remember seeing you talk in Colorado as a kid

Woz -

I remember seeing you talk at the Colorado School of Mines back in the old Apple II+ days. I was about 10 years old then and I had you autograph my Apple II+ lid. I still have it and I don't plan on selling it any time soon.

I consider you one of the most honorable and innovative people in the computer industry. Your whole philosophy made a huge impression on me since I could type. You're not after the allmighty dollar like Jobs and Gates - you're out there for the fun of it and that's what really counts to me.

Q: I can think of only a handful of people who are unsung heros like you (the original xerox parc engineers being one example) - you know, the people who did all of the really *GOOD* work and are not millionaires and go rather unsung in the computer industry. Who do you respect in this way? Are there other people out there that deserve recognition that aren't getting it?

NOTE: All I can say is "Thanks" for all you've contributed to the computer industry. The first Apple-related memories that I have are figuring out how to do shape tables in Apple Basic. 8)
--
Steven Webb
System Administrator II - Juneau and TECOM projects
NCAR - Research Applications Program

Laptops in schools

You've dedicated the recent years of your life to education, and I'd like to hear (a lot) from you about the appropriate use of technology in education. Specifically, pioneering schools (including my sons') are requiring the use of laptop computers; in our case, starting in seventh grade, all students are required to carry a laptop all the time. I'm not convinced that laptops even belong in a classroom, much less in the hands of a seventh graders, and would like your take on these points:

1) Student maturity - at what point are students mature enough to carry a computer around without wasting endless hours on desktop frills, games, and chat? Seventh grade seems too early to me.

2) Faculty training - excellent schools have excellent teachers with many years of teaching experience; most of them don't have a clue about computers. How do we retain and retrain our great teachers while introducing technology into our students' academic lives?

3) What is an appropriate level of computer science to introduce into junior high? high school? What languages have been successful in this age group? I've had great experiences building website with fifth and sixth graders through the Thinkquest Junior organization. What other activities are age appropriate?

Best wishes and many thanks for all your contributions,

Rich Ackerman

Re:stupid question, and here's why

I'd say it even more strongly than that: Win95 does preemptively multitask, and it absolutely does have protected memory. The only caveat is that 16 bit apps (which are awfully rare these days) run in a single memory/process space.

You can complain all you want about the implementation, but from a design standpoint, Win32 pretty much has all those features that Apple has failed to deliver in the MacOS for years now. And it does it with a much greater degree of backward compatibility than the MacOS provides. (As a matter of fact, most of Win95's problems stem from way, way too much backward compatibility.)

I don't mean to turn this into a MacOS vs. Windows flame war... I'm just pointing to Windows as an example of an OS that has managed to include the features of a modern OS without breaking backwards compatibility. Apple could have done the same with MacOS, but they didn't, and it would be interesting to hear why.

What comes next from Apple?

Apple is responsible for two of the biggest products in computer lore, the Apple II and the Macintosh. Do you think Apple can change computing in such a dramatic way again, and what do you envision such a product to be?

The next Big Thing

First of all, thank you for your part in creating one of the best computer companies on the planet. Now, on to the question:

Taking a look at things right now, it seems there hasn't been a major change in the way computer operating systems work in over 30 years. Every major operating system to be released this year is, directly or in concept, based on Unix. And while Unix is a great system, it's still incredibly old when you consider that computers only a year old are considered 'slow' by some, and machines 5 years old typically can't run current edition OSes. Other than the invention/adoption of the GUI, no radical changes have occured in the basic OS.

So, my question is, what do you consider the biggest obstacle in designing the next Big Thing in operating systems? Why are 30 year old ideas just now being accepted in the mainstream, and why haven't other concepts taken root during that time? Or is this as good as it gets with the current computing mindset?

Wozcam

I don't know about you but, that seems a little creepy.
How do you feel about Steve Jobs running Apple again (interim or not), and do you agree with the direction he is taking with the company?

Pirates of Silicon Valley

Did you like the portrayal of you and Jobs in the movie, especially how Joey Slotnick did of you?

Logo!

Hey Steve! I did my first programming in second grade with Logo on the classic Apple II. It was pure joy and I consider it a good day now if I feel as satisfied after a day of programming. What do you think is a good language or computing environment to get kids interested in programming today? Are people still using Logo to introduce kids to programming? Do you think it is more or less important in the world today to introduce kids not just to computers but to programming? Thanks and keep up the good work! Alex

primary education

Is the US public (primary) education system as screwed-up as some people say? Worse than it used to be? If so, what is to be done?

the Steves

Steve,

What advice can you give the new innovators? As someone who would like to start a company, I can't help but notice that most truly innovative companies tend to boom then bust, either fading slowly into obscurity or being assimilated by some larger company.

Do you have any ideas for avoiding this fate? Is the only alternative to make some money and become a predatory company yourself? Or, alternatively, is this the eventual unavoidable fate of all idea-driven companies (Netscape, SGI, Apple, etc)?

Or, to sum up the question: Can an Apple ever defeat a Microsoft?

----

A question

Once upon a time, garage developers were considered the mainstay of the computer industry. Later, either you or S. Jobs said that the days of garage developers was over, forever. Later still, the Open Source model rewoke the Garage Developer philosophy with a jolt. (Or a Mountain Dew, depending on taste.)

Today, do you feel that garage development still has a place in Computing? And, if so, would it be in software, hardware or both?

The Future of Education

From what I've read, you are very involved with children and their education and technology seems to play a major role in the basis of that education. Personally, I think that next to being loved adaquately, education is the most important factor in a developing child's life. In America we seem to take education for granted and are very far behind other countries in regard to the quality of the education that our children receive. Technology in general and more specifically, computers and the Internet, are fantastic tools with a great potential for drastically improving education.

My question: How do you see education making better use of technology and technology making education better?

----------------

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." - Albert Einstein

What would you design now?

Steve,

If you could be freed from any management influences and had the desire to design a new machine, what would the features be? I'm not interested in processor speeds or scads of memory and whatnot, but more in what innovations you'd like to see.

Did/do average people need a computer?

In the days of the Apple ][, did you believe the average American household needed a personal computer? I remember being told that computers could balance your checkbook, keep your schedule and store your recipes and wondering if that was a cost-effective solution for people, or just an expensive, if fascinating toy. It's my impression that it's only now with consumer Internet access that a home computer provides value for most people.

What do you think?

Can you please state something for the record?

My name is Geoff Wozniak. I am a computer science student and general all-round electronics tinkerer (a rookie, really). I have been in a record production program as well and my nickname is indeed "Woz". No matter where I go (including the record program, 'cause we used Macs), people seem to think that we are directly related in some way. I admire all that you have done, but could you please go on record as saying we are not related and that I do not know you personally? Just want something to cite when I get asked again. Thanks!

Geoff Wozniak

What would an Apple II 2000 look like?

Hi Steve,

The Apple II was the original "geek dream machine." I mean, the Apple ][+ we got back in 1982 or so came with schematics! Talk about an open system!

Pretend that Apple (or some other company) came to you and asked you to design a PC that would "fill the shoes" of the Apple II line. What do you think you'd put in it?

From reading your website, I know you're pretty pro-Macintosh... is that the ultimate in what you'd want to see in a personal computer, or would you do some things differently? Where, do you think, that current PC's (not meaning just WinTel machines) reflect the philosophy of the Apple II, and what do you think they have missed?

Homebrew Computers.

I have always been facinated by the history of the early personal computer, especially during the period in which you developed the Apple I (The Homebrew Computer Club days.)

As someone from the generation in which computers have always been available on the mass market, I would love to build my own, simple, homebrew computer as a hobbie. Do you have any suggestions on how I might get started on such a project?

Greetings Oh-Woz-One :-P

First off, whether or not my question [slashdot.org] makes it to Steve, I want to -PERSONALLY- thank him since this is the closest shot I'll EVER get.

In the Apple II+ days (~1979), when I was in 5th grade, Apple donated 20-ish Apple II's to the elementary school in my small (Like many Slashdotter's, when I was a kid, I was extremely bored with the unchallenging, crappy cirruculum available at most public schools and was written off by administrators and teachers as 'lazy and unmotivated'. The Apple II+ changed my life... literally.

I started programming all those years ago in Logo and Basic on the II+, and spent many an hour after school as the lone kid on the computer, so much so, that I was allowed to be the last person in the school building and trusted to make sure the door was locked, sometimes going home as late as 8 or 9 PM after a full day of school.

By 8th grade, I was a teachers aide for the several computer classes, by high school, a general consultant for the school system there, etc. etc. etc. Since college, I've worked for Intel, HP and currently work developing CAD software for a small CPU design center in Austin, TX.

Anyway, I've gotten to work on projects and with technology (Pentium, Pentium III, iA64, other x86 CPU's, Mac consulting, etc) that I could've never dreamed of as a wee kid busting keys on the Apple II+ 20 years ago. All I can say, Steve, is thank you for your -true- innovation to the world of computing, and thank you for your early influence at Apple for supporting education. The difference you have made in my life is greater than I think either of us could imagine.

Now, for my question: While Apple's MacOS is (generally) recognized as the model of 'ease of use', most GUI based/interfaced OS's are still WAY too complex for the masses, not only in configuration complexity, but also in the fact that they are generally American/European-ly ethnocentric. For example, no ones come up with a really good way to input/output Chinese characters on a PC. (at least to my knowledge) In spite of this view, I still use a Mac as my primary computing device, with a Linux box running a close second.

My question to you is: What technology do you see breaking genral computing open to the masses in terms of humanistic ease of use and cutting down the barrier of Roman alphanumeric and English language centricity?

Bonus Question: What is your preferred development language? (I know you -still- code!)
Much Respect,

Toby Sanchez

LinuxPPC?

What's your take on the use of LinuxPPC vs. the MacOS? Many people say that Mac hardware is (and always has been) better than x86, but it's been held back by the OS. Do you think that LinuxPPC can change that?

Teaching the children

Steve,
I remember seeing at one point that you run a day camp or what not to help children get accustomed to using computers and what not. (I can't find any references to that at this point).

My question is this:
Do you feel that operating systems such as Linux/*BSD are a viable option for teaching those children who have no previous experience with a computer? Certainly the cost factor would be a great motivation for choosing these over other operating systems. It seems to me that it is more difficult to train those who are set in one GUI than those who have no previous experience whatsoever. I really have an intrest in this kind of community service and felt that someone like you with experience (and albeit alot more money ;>) could provide some insight and advice.

NOT a troll

You are a technical person (to some, THE technical person). You helped start a revolution by putting computing power into the hands of many.

How do you feel about Apple's failure to keep up on technical issues (pre-emptive multi-tasking, etc) because of it's focus on interface issues (GUI, colored plastic boxes, etc)?


---

Ease of Use vs Level of Control

Apple has long been noted for having the most (or among the most) user friendly stuff around. What do you think of the trade off between ease of use and level of control? Is there a trade off?

J:)

Apple cloning and open-ness (hardware & software)

First: Thanks, Mr. Wozniac, for Apples of various generations. Probably many of the readers of this forum have happy memories of Oregon Trail and Logo thanks to the Apple 2, and I remember my first look at the Mac, right when it came out ... boy! Though I've jumped to Linux on IBM-compatible PCs now except for one decrepit Duo 230, I've gone through many Macs to get there.

Now, my questions:

1) How would you like to have seen the issues of cloning Mac hardware handled? It seemed like a great idea to anyone who bought a Power Computing MacOS computer, and a good way to put the Mac OS into what were in many cases specialized workstations for video, audio or other uses. But then Apple pulled the plug. Is this forever?

2) The other side of that coin: How would you like to have seen non-Apple-hardware OS issues handled? It seemed like MacOS on Intel was about to rock the world ... then it died for it. Is *this* forever as well? Once OS X is out, and based on BSD, will the Mac OS again perhaps be portable in the future to Intel-type machines?

3) In the old Apple is a Hardware Company vs. Apple is a Software Company debate, where do you think the truth lies? To put the question differently, if in a crazy universe, the company had to give up one of these lines, which would make sense and why?

Thanks for reading, have a good day!

timothy

Open-source and free software questions

Do you think open-source and free software is really a revolution or only a hype? How do you think things will become in the software industry in the future with open-source variable inserted in their middle? And do you think this model could lead to a more competitive and less monopolistic market?

Have you played with the BeOS?

Hey, Woz ...

Have you ever had a chance to play around with the Be operating system? Since its developers were part of the Apple culture, I thought I might find a blurb or two on your page. What sort of advice would you offer Gassee? Is the proprietary aspect an albatross (should they opensource the OS and concentrate on apps)? Are they trying to get into the game too late?

(Just for the record, I have it on a spare partition and like it very much; I'm rooting for its success, but I'm dubious of its future).

Also ... while we're on the subject, what you think of Jean-Louis in general? Most everything I've read on the Apple saga keeps him squarely in the background.

NOTE TO SLASHDOT POWERS-THAT-BE: How's 'bout a Gassee interview, eh?

Idealism today

You seem to be one of the most "purely" idealistic people in this industry. (i.e. RMS is idealistic in the sense he wants to push GNU, you are idealistic in that you just want to help kids get a leg up and generally be An All-Around Good Guy.)

Do you ever look at the industry and get depressed over what's it's become with companies with virtually no product and running deep in the red but who have "e-" or "dot-com" in their names pulling off ridiculously huge IPOs, companies patenting obviously unpatentable concepts and ideas apparently for the express purpose of suing the pants off of competitors instead of competing with the quality of their products, companies like Microsoft going beyond the boundaries of the law and way, way beyond the boundaries of ethical behaviour to get a step up on the competition, the industry lobbying government to pass laws that would create an entirely unregulated industry, including things like legislation that would legally disavow software companies of any responsibility for creating shoddy products that don't even do what the box says they will do, employees floating with a company just long enough to vest and then bailing out without a backwards glance so they can go to The Next Big IPO, etc, etc, etc.

What do you look at in this industry to remind yourself that computers and the computer industry can actually help make the world a better place?

-=-=-=-=-